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Should the LCBO be deregulated?


  • Total voters
    169
  • Poll closed .
The article really doesn't explain the issue very well. They hint at it with the quote from the booze companies:

“The disputed provision would inflate retail liquor prices across Canada to an unreasonable extent, by requiring suppliers to raise prices they charge in other jurisdictions,” the booze companies argue in an application to toss out the clause.

But they don't explain that the reason the companies have lower prices in other provinces is because the LCBO itself won't allow them to have a lower price in Ontario.

Josh Rubin knows this stuff. I wonder if he didn't have enough time to write it down, or some editor cut it out?
 
How long should the LCBO supply chain take to catch up, ie restoking the grocery and agency stores? Will it take a week, two weeks or more?
To me this shows that no matter how much you open up the retail side, having the LCBO as a monopolistic wholesaler is what needs to be rethought. What is so wrong with Sobeys/Metro/Lablaws from dealing directly with Molson/Coors or InBev? Why couldn't an individual Ma and Pop store make a deal with the local Winery or Craft Brewer?
It would probably work better if it were a corporation-to-corporation arrangement, but I don't see a small craft producer having much bargaining power with a multinational. Would the producer deal with each store or corporate? Would corporate 'big grocery' even allow stores to do this? How does a ma-and-pa corner store deal with off-shore producers such as Scotch Whisky, rum, etc. I'm near North Bay and can buy craft beer and cider produced several hours away. Would small producers need a fleet of travelling salespersons wandering the countryside? As is often the case, large markets and population density sometimes make things more feasible.
 
The government of Ontario should streamline alcohol pricing. Rather than setting minimum prices, they should collect excise tax per unit of ethanol. Let producers, distributors and retailers take it from there.
 
The government of Ontario should streamline alcohol pricing. Rather than setting minimum prices, they should collect excise tax per unit of ethanol. Let producers, distributors and retailers take it from there.

Ontario already has alcohol excise tax, and a very high one at that by global standards.

The problem here, is that on top of that, and a fixed, very high LCBO mark-up, is that the LCBO also does backwards pricing............setting not simply a floor price for which it will sell but a floor price it will pay.

That's insane...........and not the way any system should operate, but in our case, that's the way it does operate.
 
Ontario already has alcohol excise tax, and a very high one at that by global standards.

The problem here, is that on top of that, and a fixed, very high LCBO mark-up, is that the LCBO also does backwards pricing............setting not simply a floor price for which it will sell but a floor price it will pay.

That's insane...........and not the way any system should operate, but in our case, that's the way it does operate.
It seems a bit random. I was in Alberta a couple of months ago and stopped in a large wine/liquor chain there. Some items were much cheaper than LCBO, some slightly cheaper, some more expensive.
 
How long should the LCBO supply chain take to catch up, ie restoking the grocery and agency stores? Will it take a week, two weeks or more?
To me this shows that no matter how much you open up the retail side, having the LCBO as a monopolistic wholesaler is what needs to be rethought. What is so wrong with Sobeys/Metro/Lablaws from dealing directly with Molson/Coors or InBev? Why couldn't an individual Ma and Pop store make a deal with the local Winery or Craft Brewer?

For Grocery we were told 2-3 weeks. The skids that were ordered at the begining of the strike only started arrving this week.

I agree things need to change. The way the LCBO handle things left a lot to be desired. From the wineries that were ghosted to stores being shown we are not that important. The lack of communication. The store I was at did about 80k in sales and we lost money on it meanwhile the LCBO would of made a nice profit.
 
It would probably work better if it were a corporation-to-corporation arrangement, but I don't see a small craft producer having much bargaining power with a multinational. Would the producer deal with each store or corporate? Would corporate 'big grocery' even allow stores to do this? How does a ma-and-pa corner store deal with off-shore producers such as Scotch Whisky, rum, etc. I'm near North Bay and can buy craft beer and cider produced several hours away. Would small producers need a fleet of travelling salespersons wandering the countryside? As is often the case, large markets and population density sometimes make things more feasible.

Corporate big grocery would order from the multi-nationals directly, not leave that to individual stores.

That said, depending on the chain there is still a small amount of discretion with some store managers to carry extras, though these are generally supplied through the central warehouse system.

There are exceptions.

Foodland banner stores, though affiliated to Sobey/Empire can order from non-Sobeys suppliers, with the exception of meat I believe. Empire takes a dim view of stores sourcing their own. But they can deal with farmers/independent vendors otherwise as long as they carry mandatory products from the house lines.

****

Larger convenience stores (Circle K) are as much corporate chains as big grocery, and would operate likewise.

Indy grocery/convenience can order from whom they like; but generally get the bulk of their stuff through a major wholesalers like Sysco. The soft drink vendors (Coke/Pepsi) and Frito-O-Lay snacks generally deliver directly.

But nothing would prevent such a store (if the regulations allowed it) from going to a local craft brewer, opening a whole sale account and picking up 5 two-fours for singles, and a few sixpacks to move as such.

Delivery by said brewer would likely be available in proximity to the brewery the same was it would for a restaurant, while getting it further may mean making special arrangements.
 
For Grocery we were told 2-3 weeks. The skids that were ordered at the begining of the strike only started arrving this week.

I agree things need to change. The way the LCBO handle things left a lot to be desired. From the wineries that were ghosted to stores being shown we are not that important. The lack of communication. The store I was at did about 80k in sales and we lost money on it meanwhile the LCBO would of made a nice profit.

I had an online delivery order placed on Wednesday night of the week where the strike was announced to be over on Friday(ish).
On Sunday the LCBO sent me this email:
You recently completed an order on lcbo.com or our mobile app #35441XXX. As we begin the transition to business as usual following the strike at LCBO, we would like to let you know that it may now take up to three weeks to deliver your order.
Why the hell would it suddenly take three weeks to finish processing the order. They already had two full business days to work on it, and a previous order needed only five business days to arrive at my door.
I know they diverted staff to handle online orders and so those staff would now go back to whatever they were doing before, but this still doesn't explain three weeks.
I figure it was really to scare me into cancelling so they wouldn't have to do it. I guess it worked. Whatever. I cancelled it and waited until Tuesday and went to the store.
 
And I remember if you do a store pickup for product and need to cancel. You need to physically go to the store. Unless they changed it… I remember during Covid I ordered pink Whitney for a friend (it was a hot seller) and then they found it on their own. I had to go to the store to “pickup then refund”…
 
Why the hell would it suddenly take three weeks to finish processing the order. They already had two full business days to work on it, and a previous order needed only five business days to arrive at my door.
I know they diverted staff to handle online orders and so those staff would now go back to whatever they were doing before, but this still doesn't explain three weeks.
I figure it was really to scare me into cancelling so they wouldn't have to do it. I guess it worked. Whatever. I cancelled it and waited until Tuesday and went to the store.

I suspect that the LCBO is focusing thier energy on getting replenishment for their stores and fullfill bar and resturants orders.

Just to piggyback on a couple of posts. The AGCO has really strict rules on how beer is sold and merchandise. One thing is that retailers can't take any incentives for things like displays or volume discounting. It keeps things on a soemwhat level playing field, so a craft brewer doesn't have a high entey barrier to get shelf space. Most breweries do have a sale/merchandising team and they do visit stores and as long as it has a LCBO number it can be order/sold. There are some orders that the only thing the LCBO does is the exchange of money.

On the other hand, Im not sure how much the current Craft Market will grow with c stores. Some craft beer sell better than others. A store like Circle K will most likely keep to the bigger players like Great Lakes, Beau's etc that sell better.
 
I had an online delivery order placed on Wednesday night of the week where the strike was announced to be over on Friday(ish).
On Sunday the LCBO sent me this email:

Why the hell would it suddenly take three weeks to finish processing the order. They already had two full business days to work on it, and a previous order needed only five business days to arrive at my door.
I know they diverted staff to handle online orders and so those staff would now go back to whatever they were doing before, but this still doesn't explain three weeks.
I figure it was really to scare me into cancelling so they wouldn't have to do it. I guess it worked. Whatever. I cancelled it and waited until Tuesday and went to the store.
I placed an order on the 16th; it was "shipped" on the 25th but hasn't been picked up yet by the courier company (which was probably swamped at some point; last week, the receiving room of my building had a lot of cases from the LCBO and Ontario wineries ready to be picked up by tenants).
 
Larger convenience stores (Circle K) are as much corporate chains as big grocery, and would operate likewise.

Indy grocery/convenience can order from whom they like; but generally get the bulk of their stuff through a major wholesalers like Sysco. The soft drink vendors (Coke/Pepsi) and Frito-O-Lay snacks generally deliver directly.

But nothing would prevent such a store (if the regulations allowed it) from going to a local craft brewer, opening a whole sale account and picking up 5 two-fours for singles, and a few sixpacks to move as such.

Delivery by said brewer would likely be available in proximity to the brewery the same was it would for a restaurant, while getting it further may mean making special arrangements.
I was pondering this last night as I went for a backroads m/c ride that passed four or five independent convenience stores (the rural/northern type; 'fireworks, worms and homemade cheese' types of places). It puts a lot of pressure on the owner to drive all over picking up a few cases each from a scattered field of craft operators. Conversely, it puts a lot of pressure on the crafters to run small drops of product all over creation. Margins are pretty thin on both sides. I perhaps see a new business line for Sysco or someone similar. No doubt regulation would be involved.

At the end of the day, Shelf space is at a premium and I suspect most stores will stock what moves; which will likely be the corporate brands.
 
Downtown Toronto and places with a critical mass of aging hipsters like me will have niche stores that sell a great selection of craft and interesting international beers. I doubt this is going to be a benefit to smaller places in terms of variety and quality.
 
I had an online delivery order placed on Wednesday night of the week where the strike was announced to be over on Friday(ish).
On Sunday the LCBO sent me this email:

Why the hell would it suddenly take three weeks to finish processing the order. They already had two full business days to work on it, and a previous order needed only five business days to arrive at my door.
I know they diverted staff to handle online orders and so those staff would now go back to whatever they were doing before, but this still doesn't explain three weeks.
I figure it was really to scare me into cancelling so they wouldn't have to do it. I guess it worked. Whatever. I cancelled it and waited until Tuesday and went to the store.

I ordered some bourbon from a private owned store in Vancouver and got it within two days. I like British Columbia's liquor sales model. You got both goverment owned liquor stores and private owned liquor stores. If you want a bottle delivered, you got lots of choice. And they take back empties. Why am i paying for a deposit when i have no Beer Stores near me? But i have two LCBO's near by. They should take back the the bottles they sell.
 
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I was pondering this last night as I went for a backroads m/c ride that passed four or five independent convenience stores (the rural/northern type; 'fireworks, worms and homemade cheese' types of places). It puts a lot of pressure on the owner to drive all over picking up a few cases each from a scattered field of craft operators. Conversely, it puts a lot of pressure on the crafters to run small drops of product all over creation. Margins are pretty thin on both sides. I perhaps see a new business line for Sysco or someone similar. No doubt regulation would be involved.

At the end of the day, Shelf space is at a premium and I suspect most stores will stock what moves; which will likely be the corporate brands.
Most Craft Beer is done by themself, courier or through TNG/Prologix. I believe TNG covers all of Ontario.
 

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