[Midtown Urbanist]

From the EA: "The Etobicoke-Finch West Corridor does not have sufficient space for a 3.5 metre by-pass lane while at the same time providing standard facilities for sidewalks, bicycle lanes, four through lanes and left turn lanes for general traffic."

Well there's your problem.

We are spending billion more for LRT to appease car drivers, as typical.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well there's your problem.

We are spending billion more for LRT to appease car drivers, as typical.

Just creating peace in our time, but not for the future.

 

[TOareaFan]

3. Ridership projections often do not take into account latent demand. Regardless, when was the last time these Miller era projections were updated? In 2014 the Finch bus all-day ridership was 43,952 (source), about the same as Spadina and Queen streetcars in fact. Over regular service hours, that works out to be almost 2,500 per hour on average - a number that is certainly even higher during peak periods. If all this is true, 2031 might be happening today as we speak.

decent point....wonder how much of that 43k ridership is not on the route of the new LRT. The Finch West bus goes all the way to the Yonge Subway....the LRT will only go to the new Finch West station.

 

[TransitBart]

I read quietly and I think that sometimes all of the would-be pros are delusional. You all think you know everything.

People/consumers/citizens/voters tailor their travel to avoid bad transit situations. They don't take a job they would like and don't go to schools - in this case Humber or York U because the travel is too arduous. The ridership studies are meaningless. Had Toronto stepped into the twentieth century with faregates thirty years ago, we'd know where the tap-ons and tap-offs are happening.

I will bet everyone that the Eglinton LRT is a game-changer and the ridership studies are at best "flawed". All people living north of Bloor or Danforth now travelling downtown - travel south to Line 2 today. There is no way to know accurately how many will now decide to travel north to Eglinton and then into Yonge - Eglinton and then down. Pretending anything else is nonsense no matter how many years you spent in school or how many dollars were spent by a consultancy to determine such and such a result.

Building an LRT is good period. The issue is that bus transit sucks and we all know it. I grew up near a subway and I took it regularly. No one takes 2 or 3 connecting buses with any gusto. If we can all be less petty and penny pinching (why so much money? , perhaps an LRT is s statement of faith - and a true investment - in a part of the city that is not wealthy and not overall well served. Perhaps it would change a life or two for a few kids or their parents who might be closer to a job?

Overall - I like the enthusiams of the readership and the debate here is good. The level of penny-pinching small-mindedness is pathetic.

Two situations to think about for small minds.

1. Connecting Eglinton and Finch through the airport. Great. Doesn't mean you have to interline them or run them together. Does mean that if you build a honking huge maintenance facility at Mount Dennis that you can now avoid part of the expense by simply running the same model light rail vehicle to the Mount Dennis Facility to overhaul it. Also allows you to move vehicles for crush loads or to redeploy them to meet demand without loading them on trailers.

2. Sheppard Subway. I have never heard so much petty penny-pinching BS about what a failure this is. One. had the link from Sheppard/Yonge to the Sapdina subway been built, The TTC would have a way to get trains to the Line 4 and to the northern part of Line 1 when Eglinton station has to be closed for construction of the LRT station at Eglinton/Yonge. Furthermore, instead of relentless (and petty) criticism of 'subway to nowhere' - has anyone considered that the ridership is low because we built the 'stubway' in place of a subway? Extend it west to Downsview on Line 1 and east to the Scarborough Town Centre and see who takes it. What kind of train runs in the tunnel is a stupid debate really. As for those who are doubtful of demand - take a look at the 401. It shadows the line for it's length.

I speak with some confidence. I am an employer in the city. I can't bring people from northern Etobicoke to East York and I can't hire anyone from Scarborough who is willing to make the commute.

The public transit investments are overdue and they are largely in the right place. Time to stop kvetching about should have been bus etc. Time to focus on one thing. Getting the job done in the shortest possible time at the best cost possible for us all.

 

[salsa]

Well there's your problem.

We are spending billion more for LRT to appease car drivers, as typical.

I will always support a road diet where they make sense, such as Eglinton. However 4 lanes + a left turn lane is not all that much.
- Finch gets a lot of truck traffic because of the two industrial parks. The poorly designed industrial road network doesn't help either.
- Highway 400 and the Barrie rail corridor are an impenetrable barrier that forces all vehicles off of side streets.
- There are no continuous parallel roads between Finch and Steeles/Sheppard. In the old city you have Dupont and Davenport between Bloor and St Clair for example. Up here, even Sheppard dead-ends at Weston Road.
- Drivers can't access highway 400 at Sheppard, and Steeles only has a partial interchange.
- You need that left turn lane with it's dedicated traffic signal in order to safely do a left turn or U-turn over the LRT ROW. Otherwise you will get a bunch of turn restrictions like on Spadina Ave.

Honestly, I'm proud that the typical suburban arterial in Toronto is only 4 through lanes. In Vaughan or Mississauga, a minor collector road would be the same size if not more.

 

[salsa]

decent point....wonder how much of that 43k ridership is not on the route of the new LRT. The Finch West bus goes all the way to the Yonge Subway....the LRT will only go to the new Finch West station.

From my experience, buses are jam packed leaving from Finch station even though most of those people get off within the planned LRT corridor. West of Keele is York University, Humber College, and several densely populated but impoverished neighbourhoods. Whereas east of Keele only has an industrial park and wealthier, lower density residential areas. In that section, the busiest bus stops would be Bathurst St and Finch station. Aside from those two stops, there's not much reason to go there, and a lot of the subway-bound riders will be switching to the Spadina line when the extension opens next year.

That being said, it would be best to have the LRT built in it's entirely.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

1. Metrolinx is misleading us when they say the capacity of LRT is 15,000 pphpd. The Finch LRT is not designed for that kind of ridership. Even with complete grade separation, that is pushing the limit.

They're not misleading you. The capacity of LRT, even at grade, approaches 15,000 pphpd.

Recall that the service planning averages of the Flexities are 204 passengers at peak per car, and that our LRT systems are designed to accommodate Flexity trains running up to three cars in length. Running the line at the same frequency of the 512 St. Clair Line, 21.2 trains per hour (2 min 50 second headways), would provide a capacity of 13,000 pphpd.

Upgrading to trains with open gangways can squeeze additional capacity out of the line. And remember, 2 min 50 seconds isn't a hard limit for headways; we've operated on shorter headways than that before.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

1. Metrolinx is misleading us when they say the capacity of LRT is 15,000 pphpd. The Finch LRT is not designed for that kind of ridership. Even with complete grade separation, that is pushing the limit.

View attachment 74385

2. "A peak point demand of 2,800 people per hour would require a vehicle about every 2 minutes, 45 seconds." That's the headway using Light Rail Vehicles. To even attempt to handle that with buses is a recipe for bunching and unreliable service.

3. Ridership projections often do not take into account latent demand. Regardless, when was the last time these Miller era projections were updated? In 2014 the Finch bus all-day ridership was 43,952 (source), about the same as Spadina and Queen streetcars in fact. Over regular service hours, that works out to be almost 2,500 per hour on average - a number that is certainly even higher during peak periods. If all this is true, 2031 might be happening today as we speak.

4. Speaking of 2031, by the time the LRT is built, that date will be only 10 years away. However the design life of LRT is at least 30 years. During that time, the city will continue to grow. Humber College and York University will continue to expand. Car ownership will continue to decline. Connecting bus routes will continue to get higher ridership and more frequent service. I fully expect that ridership on Finch will only go up as time goes on. The ability of LRT to accommodate future growth is a benefit that should not be understated.

I'm not sure about London, but thank goodness Toronto did not settle for inferior BRT that would be mostly full on day one, let alone in the future. Not to mention better development potential, no more diesel buses, a completely rebuilt streetscape, higher ridership for lower operating cost, longer lasting vehicles, a ride that is smoother, quieter and more spacious. Too bad Brampton will be missing out on the benefits of LRT (at least for the time being). Would have been paid for by the province too. Shame!




Sure, but you get what you pay for.




From the EA: "The Etobicoke-Finch West Corridor does not have sufficient space for a 3.5 metre by-pass lane while at the same time providing standard facilities for sidewalks, bicycle lanes, four through lanes and left turn lanes for general traffic."

BRT couldn't would not on Finch. Demand would outstrip capacity. 30 articulated busses per hour at a capacity of 77 passengers per bus would provide a capacity of only 2,300 pphpd. Projected demand on Finch is 3,400 pphpd.

 

[TOareaFan]

BRT couldn't would not on Finch. Demand would outstrip capacity. 30 articulated busses per hour at a capacity of 77 passengers per bus would provide a capacity of only 2,300 pphpd. Projected demand on Finch is 3,400 pphpd.

maybe we should be looking at/considering bi-articulated buses for peak time use.

 

[ssiguy2]

Meanwhile back in London...................

If the city decides that BRT would be better for both routes then fine and I applaud the city taking the expert advice as opposed to going LRT for the sole reason of keeping up with the Jones.

The issue I have is that whether it's $800 million for all LRT a combo LRT/BRT or all BRT, that is for Londoners to decide not Queen's Park or Ottawa. London knows what's best for London not some bureaucrat or corrupt politician at Queen's Park.

If I had my way I would stick with the current LRT/BRT combo because of the logistical problems at Oxford & Richmond. That route will be the busiest and there has to be a tunnel built in order for the rapid transit to not be at the mercy of CN. Much of the cost difference between the LRT and BRT for that route is not so much the LRT itself but rather the tunnel. If they are still going to build the tunnel then I think they should just make it LRT to begin with.

You want to be responsible with any government funds and get the most benefit of the transit dollars spent but first the system must be made to be functional and that will require a tunnel so they might as well build it LRT. This is especially true because I think QP & Ottawa would be more willing to hand over money for an LRT tunnel than a bus tunnel if only because LRT looks better at the ribbon cutting ceremonies.

 

[nfitz]

Recall that the service planning averages of the Flexities are 204 passengers at peak per car ...

If they used 204 they are wrong. A CLRV is 74; crush is about 85.

204 seems high for even crush, let alone planning. TTC is using 130 on their marginally narrower Flexities for planning, and I suspect what little is gained being a few inches wider is lost with the second operator's cabin.

 

[ssiguy2]

This entire web site is devoted to Toronto............is it too much to ask that one little section remain for London?

 

[wolfewood]

This entire web site is devoted to Toronto............is it too much to ask that one little section remain for London?

No shit. It's called UrbanToronto... I understand this is a London thread but come on.

 

[Haljackey]

It's discussion about London's rapid transit plan, with a Toronto focus.


Anyways,
I am kinda bummed that the recommended plan no longer includes LRT. London missed the last big infrastructure investment (freeways) from higher levels of government, and I feel like light rail is our second chance at this. Without it, London will look even further behind Waterloo Region, which will have both freeways and LRT.

I like the hybrid proposal, because it starts with a base build that can be expanded upon. If usage never really amounts to anything, we can still keep the base system and it should operate fine. If it does well, then the base line will become the backbone of a larger system.

By going BRT only, it's still just bus service in my mind. There's a certain sigma about riding the bus, and I think despite having a more efficient bus system, it will make London look paler compared to other cities compared to LRT.

I've never written to a politician before, but I did email my ward's councilor about my concerns over the change to the rapid transit proposal. Seems as though we are on the same page for now. Just hope other councilors agree and don't change their mind later down the road after its too late.

 

[W. K. Lis]

London may end up following the Ottawa path with their BRT. Ottawa is upgrading to LRT now only after they built their BRT and found it wasn't enough.