Jasmine18
Senior Member
I think politicians need to understand that currently cultures isnt defined by some people screaming on Twitter..
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- Thread starter MetroMan
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
What do you mean 'allowed'?
They aren't legal; the City isn't telling anyone to do it; and no one is asking the CIty's permission.
I'm not sure where 'allowed' comes into it.
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As to how long it takes to take them down..............I won't get bogged into any discussion on merits.......
'The City' doesn't always know when someone sets up camp, even in an obvious spot. There is no one whose job it is to drive along the Lakeshore or University or hike through a valley looking for encampments.
Once The City is aware of an issue, people whose job it is to reach out gently to people in these situations and see if they are willing to go to shelters will be dispatched to the location, probably within a few days, but it may take longer sometimes.
If that goes well (and sometimes it does); that's that.
If, however, people refuse to move; that necessitates a meeting of many people representing social services, shelter, the police, whatever department's land is involved (parks or transportation most likely), as well as waste management who will tasked with cleaning up the site; and often Toronto Fire may be involved if there's hazardous waste issues (propane tanks); and paramedics may also be on standby, garbage/dump trucks need to be arranged, shelter beds held open etc etc.
An operation like this takes a bit of time to put together; it can be done in a hurry in a day or 2; but only if its deemed a very high priority from the top; and then it means other work is put on hold to get that done.
There is lag time to deliver such an action, typically a few weeks; but that's from the time there's a complaint and a process initiated.
Sometimes a site is up much longer; but usually that's because no one has said anything.
Or because there are special circumstances.
Example; was a well known encampment in a valley, where there were complaints, but no action taken over the winter, so a delay of a few months.
This was because the slope was a mixture, depending on the day, of mud and/or ice.
It would have been dangerous for staff to descend such a slope and royal PITA to get the equipment and people out.
You make it sound like such an easy and flip thing to do; just go collapse someone's tent and threaten to arrest someone, takes 2 people and 5 minutes............not so much.
Jasmine18
Senior Member
My logic is that if there was actual strict enforcement they would be no incentive from homeless people to set up makeshift tent cities.
salsa
Senior Member
Shouldn't we be asking why the city allows homelessness to exist?
^^^^^ This.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
What are you going to use as a deterrent? Fines (for those without money)? Jail (which is a form of high-cost housing)?
AoD
Jasmine18
Senior Member
Well, the issue is why have tent cities become more common in the city lately.
That is the question.
Is it that such places are being tolerated more and therefore people feel confident to set them up with impunity or is there far greater homelessness.
That is the question.
Is it that such places are being tolerated more and therefore people feel confident to set them up with impunity or is there far greater homelessness.
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Jasmine18
Senior Member
two reasons
-some people sort of enabling these tent city behaviour i think through activism and dont really look for solutions.
-People in Toronto pay super low property tax and want to keep it that way.
Its interesting as some cities that are far poorer then Toronto have no tent cities sprawling up and dont have this issue.
So it just confuses me why it's happening in a city that has so many social services in comparison.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I don't see the problem with them in and of themselves. Why shouldn't citizens be allowed to sleep under a bridge? Why do we insist on sweeping these people under a rug?
Have you talked to any of these people ever? Shelters are bullshit for the most part. I know I'd rather sleep in my own tent than at a shelter.
I've tented in Toronto. Though I'm not homeless, just good at taking the piss.
As for why homelessness exists....damn, where do you want me to start? Abuse, neglect, addiction, bad luck, injury, mental illness, choice, stupidity, fraud, and on.
The city as a government doesn't really get to decide whether or not it will exist. Housing First would be a good step but I can tell you right now that it would not eliminate homelessness. Nothing ever will.
I know a thing or two about homeless folk....having known a few in my time and having spoken with another few others.
Just a small example: one of my closest friends is an ex-crackhead who was homeless and whoring at the time. Another is an ex-tweaker who was found by some of our friends bloody and naked in a park. A colleague of mine is currently homeless.
Their paths were all different but brought them all to the same place in the end. Their prescriptions for turning it around were all different as well.
The prescriptions of the well-intentioned aren't necessarily enough, I'm sorry to burst "progressive" bubbles.
Have you talked to any of these people ever? Shelters are bullshit for the most part. I know I'd rather sleep in my own tent than at a shelter.
I've tented in Toronto.
Though I'm not homeless, just good at taking the piss. As for why homelessness exists....damn, where do you want me to start? Abuse, neglect, addiction, bad luck, injury, mental illness, choice, stupidity, fraud, and on.
The city as a government doesn't really get to decide whether or not it will exist. Housing First would be a good step but I can tell you right now that it would not eliminate homelessness. Nothing ever will.
I know a thing or two about homeless folk....having known a few in my time and having spoken with another few others.
Just a small example: one of my closest friends is an ex-crackhead who was homeless and whoring at the time. Another is an ex-tweaker who was found by some of our friends bloody and naked in a park. A colleague of mine is currently homeless.
Their paths were all different but brought them all to the same place in the end. Their prescriptions for turning it around were all different as well.
The prescriptions of the well-intentioned aren't necessarily enough, I'm sorry to burst "progressive" bubbles.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
I wish that were true.I think politicians need to understand that currently cultures isnt defined by some people screaming on Twitter..
Notice that Twitter became extremely polarized (and toxic) since the GamerGate controversy in late 2014, regardless of which side one is on.
DSC
Superstar
Unfortunately (and shamefully), many people cannot find affordable housing and the 'easiest' solution for governments is "shelters'. These may be (just about) OK for a short-term emergency stay but they are not a 'home' and you are thrown out early in the day and can't return until evening. In normal times, if you live in a shelter at night you can go to a library or a mall or ?? during the day. Now you can't do this which is, I think, why we see more homeless now (I think 'they' are just more visible.)
If I were homeless I think I would really prefer my own tent rather than having to live in a crowded shelter and being itinerant for most of the day. If I had a tent, I would probably prefer having neighbours for company, safety etc. Of course, it would be better if 'we' provided permanent housing and the City has been quite successful at doing this but many people are homeless due to mental or drug or alcohol problems so you need to not only provide homes you need to provide ongoing support and help.
Jasmine18
Senior Member
Northern Light
Superstar
To address that issue (as best one can), we need to build vastly more affordable housing.
We need to fix shelters, as the interim step by moving to single-room occupancy, with key card access. This would allow shelter residents to have a de facto fixed address, to secure their belongings, to enjoy better hygiene (SRO should contain its own bathroom facilities.), and should allow shelter residents to stay during daytime hours.
We also need to address timely, free access to mental healthcare of all types, but particularly those seeking addiction treatment.
All of which, will cost money.
It will, more than likely pay for itself within a few years.
But upfront, government must raise taxes, as it must to tackle a host of other issues as well.
We will not solve big societal problems without sacrifice.
picard102
Senior Member
Because if you had strict enforcement you'd have bleeding hearts, who are entirely unaffected by the presence of tent cities in their neighbourhood, jump down police and politicans throats.
