kEiThZ
Superstar
Aside from the DRL....I am wondering why no thought was given to surface LRT on Queen or King....that would alleviate many of the service concerns many folks have here.
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- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Rainforest
Senior Member
Well, let's hope they are right, but I doubt that Yonge can do without relief, looking at how packed it gets already.
But if Metrolinx and TTC are determined not to start DRL within the next 15 years, then, perhaps, a Plan B is possible: frequent "Express" service on the Markham Stouffville GO line, or at least its section within 416.
With the Presto fare system eliminating or reducing the mode penalty, this line can function as a north-eastern quazi-subway. It can intersept many riders heading downtown from east of Kennedy, and perhaps even some from west of Kennedy.
I wonder why didn't this line make it into the priority Express services list. Note that while Lakeshore W and E will be interlined, the Brampton / Airport service could interline with Markham Stouffville, so trains do not need to turn back at Union.
Rainforest
Senior Member
This is a good question. It should be noted though that Queen and King are too narrow for an LRT in Finch W or Sheppard E style. Perhaps the LRT can be "distributed": one dedicated lane on Queen, opposite direction on King. Or, Richmond or Adelaide might be used.
Queen, Richmond, Adelaide, and King together have 14 to 16 lanes, so one could think that 2 of those lanes can be allocated to exclusive streetcar ROW, and 2 more for mixed-traffic streetcars.
DavidH
Senior Member
So, any word from the Metrolinx board meeting today? Was the draft RTP approved as-is?
RedRocket191
Senior Member
drum118
Superstar
NO!!
All projects that have agreement between the Feds and Prov are to be shown on the RTP. Given it more than a fact, the 407 needs to be shown as something built within the next 10 years. This includes the Blue22.
There is to be a map showing what projects will be done or underway for the first 5 years.
There a long lest of things that staffs is going to have to look at and put into the RTP before it goes to the public. Some may not make in time as well for the Oct board meeting.
Nov is a ticking time bomb with various members of the board and they have support of other members to deal with various issues.
There is a call that there must be some plan to present to the public and government what tools maybe put into place by 2010-11 to fund the various projects now, not later. $2/day per parking spot would add some real $$.
Fare integration must happen sooner than later was raised by Hazel.
Where is the money to fund current systems for today's needs let alone expand them to meet RTP needs was raised by a broad member??
Where is the transportation corridor with rail in that not shown on the map??
High speed line going to make the the Weston folks real happy along with Hamilton when they find it going through their backyard.
Why is 410 that is rank 39 on the map considering it will be finish next year??
Mississauga is only getting BRT routes and not surprise at that since Toronto and York take the lion share of all the money in the first place. Add in GO, not much left for the rest of the 905.
Hamilton that has a population smaller than Mississauga and needs to combine close to 30% of its routes to come close to what Hurontario carries daily is getting an LRT.
The RTP is in the right directions, but falls way too short of what is needed just to get to the 10 year stage, let alone 2020 or 31.
With elections in 2010 and 2011, got to show the public why (I) should be reelected to office for another 4/5 years and keep cost low.
All projects that have agreement between the Feds and Prov are to be shown on the RTP. Given it more than a fact, the 407 needs to be shown as something built within the next 10 years. This includes the Blue22.
There is to be a map showing what projects will be done or underway for the first 5 years.
There a long lest of things that staffs is going to have to look at and put into the RTP before it goes to the public. Some may not make in time as well for the Oct board meeting.
Nov is a ticking time bomb with various members of the board and they have support of other members to deal with various issues.
There is a call that there must be some plan to present to the public and government what tools maybe put into place by 2010-11 to fund the various projects now, not later. $2/day per parking spot would add some real $$.
Fare integration must happen sooner than later was raised by Hazel.
Where is the money to fund current systems for today's needs let alone expand them to meet RTP needs was raised by a broad member??
Where is the transportation corridor with rail in that not shown on the map??
High speed line going to make the the Weston folks real happy along with Hamilton when they find it going through their backyard.
Why is 410 that is rank 39 on the map considering it will be finish next year??
Mississauga is only getting BRT routes and not surprise at that since Toronto and York take the lion share of all the money in the first place. Add in GO, not much left for the rest of the 905.
Hamilton that has a population smaller than Mississauga and needs to combine close to 30% of its routes to come close to what Hurontario carries daily is getting an LRT.
The RTP is in the right directions, but falls way too short of what is needed just to get to the 10 year stage, let alone 2020 or 31.
With elections in 2010 and 2011, got to show the public why (I) should be reelected to office for another 4/5 years and keep cost low.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am dismayed that neither plan offers a crosstown line across the north of the 905. There is some potential for line 27 to be extended in the East and line 26 in the West. As it stands, those traveling from Pickering to Brampton, face a hodgepodge of lines or a really long trip via downtown....more than likely they'll just take their cars....
This letter to the editor also raises some good points about using existing CN corridors to build up crosstown GO service in the north:
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/507164
This letter to the editor also raises some good points about using existing CN corridors to build up crosstown GO service in the north:
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/507164
MisterF
Senior Member
More than any suburban area, downtown lacks adequate transit, especially east-west. Downtown people are being penalized by this misplaced desire to have subways to cornfields that might someday have something on them.
No, downtown Toronto and the centres are growing quite quickly. The downtown residential population is skyrocketing, and as the thread in Toronto issues shows, downtown residential growth has so far proven more resilient to the economic downturn than houses in the suburbs. And it's not only residential, the downtown workforce grew by over 18,000 in the last year alone. But even if downtown growth were flat, the DRL is sorely needed for existing demand.
Anth
Active Member
Globe and Mail
METROLINX
McCallion warns of transit duplication
JEFF GRAY
September 27, 2008
The provincial agency behind a $50-billion Toronto region transportation plan faced fresh criticism yesterday, this time from among its own board of directors.
Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion warned that Metrolinx, which released its draft master plan this week, could turn into an oversized bureaucracy that duplicates the work of local transit agencies.
Speaking to her fellow Metrolinx board members at a meeting at a downtown Toronto hotel, Ms. McCallion said she was concerned about a Metrolinx report on how the agency intends to manage transit projects.
"We've got to be careful that we're not building a bureaucracy that's second to none," Ms. McCallion said. "If we are, well I don't want any part of it."
Her concerns echoed those of fellow Metrolinx board member Roger Anderson, the chairman of Durham Region, who also accused the Metrolinx plan of ignoring his region. Mr. Anderson said he was concerned at a Metrolinx policy to charge fees for its oversight of transit projects, which he characterized as an "I'm-going-to-watch-you-dig-a-hole fee."
The board passed a resolution to have Metrolinx staff meet with municipal transit officials to define their roles. It also decided to have staff review any transit routes board members thought were unfairly left out of the draft plan.
Metrolinx chairman Rob MacIsaac said Metrolinx needed oversight powers to ensure provincial tax dollars are being spent wisely:
"The province, I think, did not intend for Metrolinx to be just a cash withdrawal machine."
Toronto Mayor David Miller said he does not share Ms. McCallion's fears, but added it was important the Toronto Transit Commission's expertise in managing projects was recognized.
"The Sheppard subway was delivered on time and on budget, or at least within the original cost estimates, through a concrete strike," he said. "They know how to do it."
He added that in Toronto, he believed "Metrolinx would have a supervisory role on behalf of the province only. But those are the kind of things that have to be talked about. I'm not concerned. We just want to get going."
Metrolinx's 25-year, $50-billion draft plan to expand public transit (and extend certain 400-series highways) was accompanied by an "investment strategy" that put off any discussion of road tolls or other new revenue sources until 2013, relying until then on $11.5-billion in transit funding from the province.
Ms. McCallion also said that the Metrolinx plan, despite work by "an awful lot of consultants," still ended up mostly as a list of existing municipal proposals.
Metrolinx board member Paul Bedford, a former Toronto chief planner, criticized the move to delay for five years any discussion of tolls or other controversial measures, urging Metrolinx to start a "dialogue" with the public on these ideas.
"Human nature is, you want something, but you don't want to pay for it," Mr. Bedford told the board.
"Nothing's free."
METROLINX
McCallion warns of transit duplication
JEFF GRAY
September 27, 2008
The provincial agency behind a $50-billion Toronto region transportation plan faced fresh criticism yesterday, this time from among its own board of directors.
Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion warned that Metrolinx, which released its draft master plan this week, could turn into an oversized bureaucracy that duplicates the work of local transit agencies.
Speaking to her fellow Metrolinx board members at a meeting at a downtown Toronto hotel, Ms. McCallion said she was concerned about a Metrolinx report on how the agency intends to manage transit projects.
"We've got to be careful that we're not building a bureaucracy that's second to none," Ms. McCallion said. "If we are, well I don't want any part of it."
Her concerns echoed those of fellow Metrolinx board member Roger Anderson, the chairman of Durham Region, who also accused the Metrolinx plan of ignoring his region. Mr. Anderson said he was concerned at a Metrolinx policy to charge fees for its oversight of transit projects, which he characterized as an "I'm-going-to-watch-you-dig-a-hole fee."
The board passed a resolution to have Metrolinx staff meet with municipal transit officials to define their roles. It also decided to have staff review any transit routes board members thought were unfairly left out of the draft plan.
Metrolinx chairman Rob MacIsaac said Metrolinx needed oversight powers to ensure provincial tax dollars are being spent wisely:
"The province, I think, did not intend for Metrolinx to be just a cash withdrawal machine."
Toronto Mayor David Miller said he does not share Ms. McCallion's fears, but added it was important the Toronto Transit Commission's expertise in managing projects was recognized.
"The Sheppard subway was delivered on time and on budget, or at least within the original cost estimates, through a concrete strike," he said. "They know how to do it."
He added that in Toronto, he believed "Metrolinx would have a supervisory role on behalf of the province only. But those are the kind of things that have to be talked about. I'm not concerned. We just want to get going."
Metrolinx's 25-year, $50-billion draft plan to expand public transit (and extend certain 400-series highways) was accompanied by an "investment strategy" that put off any discussion of road tolls or other new revenue sources until 2013, relying until then on $11.5-billion in transit funding from the province.
Ms. McCallion also said that the Metrolinx plan, despite work by "an awful lot of consultants," still ended up mostly as a list of existing municipal proposals.
Metrolinx board member Paul Bedford, a former Toronto chief planner, criticized the move to delay for five years any discussion of tolls or other controversial measures, urging Metrolinx to start a "dialogue" with the public on these ideas.
"Human nature is, you want something, but you don't want to pay for it," Mr. Bedford told the board.
"Nothing's free."
kEiThZ
Superstar
If we are talking about the need for the DRL to accomodate existing demand.....there is another solution.....move people onto GO transit .... With fare integration, its realistic that more people will use GO within the 416....ie Agincourt, Guildwood, Port Union in Scarborough are all far better solutions that using the BD line with or without a DRL. If you look at the Metrolinx plan as a whole, there are several alternatives to get folks downtown that should effectively relieve Yonge/Bloor.
Like I have pointed out, King and Queen can be serviced in different ways....for example make them one way streets, and run LRT on them...that would be my suggestion.
Like I have pointed out, King and Queen can be serviced in different ways....for example make them one way streets, and run LRT on them...that would be my suggestion.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Two problems with this:
- They are already second guessing (ie. delaying) themselves
- Only board members can have projects reviewed. The 3rd largest municipality in the GTA is not represented on the board and their mayor is plenty peeved about some routes/projects left out.
http://northpeel.com/news/article/57160
nfitz
Superstar
None of the municipalities outside Toronto are represented. Outside of Toronto, there is one representative for each region. Region of Peel selected Hazel as their representative, and she (is supposed to) represent Mississauga and Brampton equally.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I know....but Mississauga's mayor does not have a stellar history in representing Brampton's interests.
I think Mayor Fennell is a bit off by understimating the good that having 2-way, 7-day, GO Service at 15 minute frequnecies will do for Brampton. I do, however, see her concern when she has 5 new projects put forward and all she gets out of the RTP is the reannouncement of her two already funded Acceleride lines in addition to the improved GO Service (which likely would not have happened if it were not for the airport).
Anyway, it is just a bit strange that you open the list up for review but only if a board member requests it.
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree with McCallion. This report was just a list of municipal pet projects all in various stages of approval. Why do we need a provincial agency to reannounce them? Waste of money.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Here's how I predict the next evolution:
The 905ers decide to screw Toronto and the bulk of projects are pet 905 projects that get moved up to the 15 year timeframe. The province goes along cause that's where the votes are. And we finally emerge with no real grid for a quarter century....yay for political consensus.