TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Could resurrect a Finch Subway instead.
Would still be a better investment than SmartTrack
Could resurrect a Finch Subway instead.
With Bombardier struggling to deliver vehicles for Ontario light rail projects on time, the province has decided to give the company some competition.
A provincial source confirmed that Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario are seeking other potential vehicle suppliers for one of their Toronto LRT lines. The agencies have told the three consortia bidding on the Finch West LRT that they can include a vehicle supplier as part of their bids.
The new instructions from the province mean that Bombardier may be dropped as the vehicle supplier for Finch. The bidding process is scheduled to close in February.
Infrastructure Ontario referred questions about Finch vehicles to Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency for the GTHA. Metrolinx wouldn’t comment in detail on vehicle procurement for the line.
“Metrolinx is exploring all options. No decision has been made at this point,” wrote agency spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins in an email.
Metrolinx placed a $770-million order with Bombardier in 2010 for up to 182 vehicles to run on Ontario LRT lines, including 76 vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown and 23 for the Finch Ave. West route.
But the company has fallen behind schedule on the order. It was originally supposed to supply the pilot vehicle for the Eglinton Crosstown in 2014, but that date was later revised to Spring 2015. The company missed both deadlines. In July the company pledged to deliver the pilot by the end of August. Metrolinx still hasn’t received it.
In a sign that Metrolinx was growing impatient with Bombardier, this summer the agency issued the company a notice of default claiming it was in breach of contract because of the delays.
In addition to trouble with the Metrolinx order, Bombardier has also been unable to meet the original timelines for delivering the TTC’s new fleet of 204 streetcars. The company was supposed to have supplied 73 by the end of 2015, but as of this week the TTC has only 24 in service.
Under the latest revised schedule, Bombardier has pledged to deliver a total of 30 streetcars by the end of 2016. TTC CEO Andy Byford said Wednesday that he has received assurances from the company that it will be able to supply six more cars over the remaining 13 weeks of the year, but that he remains concerned.
“I’ve had more schedules (from Bombardier) than streetcars, so I have a healthy skepticism,” he said.
Selecting another company to supply the Finch vehicles could lead to a messy legal dispute between the province and the Quebec-based rail manufacturer. Bombardier spokesman Marc-Andre Lefebvre said Wednesday that the company intends to follow through on the original contract.
“Bombardier signed a contract in June 2010 to supply 182 light rail vehicles to Metrolinx. And so, we will manufacture and deliver 182 vehicles to Metrolinx, as per our contractual obligations,” he wrote in an email.
Lefebvre said that Bombardier has assembled the pilot for the Crosstown and conducted a “walkthrough” of the vehicle with Metrolinx last week. He said the company will deliver it to Metrolinx once the inspection and testing process is complete.
News that the province is amenable to finding alternate suppliers for Finch is being welcomed by other companies that say they would be able to supply vehicles for the LRT, a $1-billion, 11-km line that would run between Humber College and Finch Station on the Spadina subway extension.
“If indeed Ontario is open to other vehicle vendors, we clearly want to participate in the tendering/procurement process,” said Michelle Stein, a spokesperson for French manufacturer Alstom, which is building light rail vehicles for Ottawa’s LRT project. “Alstom believes an open bidding policy would help the owner contain costs, guarantee timely delivery of equipment and bring the latest proven technology and innovation.”
No one is going spend money if they don't win the contract unless Metrolinx pays for the unfinished prototype from the losers.Metrolinx to consider Bombardier competitors for Finch West LRT
Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario are seeking other potential vehicle suppliers for one of their Toronto LRT lines.
From link.
They should have made it a race. First one to deliver the prototype (according to the specs) will win.
Talk to Budapest, Berlin, Prague and Vienna, who have different fleet of lowfloor cars today to see if they have problems with them as well having to train operators for them.No one is going spend money if they don't win the contract unless Metrolinx pays for the unfinished prototype from the losers.
For the TTC, this means twice the training for two different fleets. I wonder how different is the BBD prototype from the current streetcars from an operating perspective. Either way, I don't think it would be that difficult to drive one once they know how to drive a new streetcar.
I just throw that out there cause Finch isn't getting that many cars. Just 23 cars with probably 9 trains of 2 LRVs in peak hours. The number probably drives down to 6 trains in off peak and weekends. I don't exactly think TTC likes a small fleet but they don't have the final say. All the cities you mention all have a much later fleet of one type. That said, you're right that it wouldn't matter too much. Plus TTC doesn't even maintain them so there's no part supply issue that they really hate with a small fleet.Talk to Budapest, Berlin, Prague and Vienna, who have different fleet of lowfloor cars today to see if they have problems with them as well having to train operators for them.
If the cab is spec correctly to match what TTC has today, operators will have no issues driving either fleet with some training, not like it is going from existing to new.
There is a big different going from the existing fleet to the new one.
Final price will determine who gets the order along with the time frame to delivery them. Just because someone can build a prototype faster doesn't mean they can build the order as fast.
If Metrolinx wants orders based on fast delivery of 2 prototype cars, they will have to cover the cost for all bidders/builders, otherwise no one will build them on spec. With at least 7 supplier waiting for a crack at this order, thats about $70 million upfront cost and not going to happen.
I wouldn't call 60 cars for TTC a small fleet with option for more. They now have the option to do so based on what happening with Metrolinx now.I just throw that out there cause Finch isn't getting that many cars. Just 23 cars with probably 9 trains of 2 LRVs in peak hours. The number probably drives down to 6 trains in off peak and weekends. I don't exactly think TTC likes a small fleet but they don't have the final say. All the cities you mention all have a much later fleet of one type. That said, you're right that it wouldn't matter too much. Plus TTC doesn't even maintain them so there's no part supply issue that they really hate with a small fleet.
I imagine they can just create one division handling both lines with one spareboard pool of crews and train everyone.
I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.I wouldn't call 60 cars for TTC a small fleet with option for more. They now have the option to do so based on what happening with Metrolinx now.
BBD is in breach of contract and TTC has the legal rights to go elsewhere on the option. A number of system in Europe decided to look elsewhere than using the option on the current order.
Budapest just got a small order for the longest cars worldwide from CAF and operates them on the same lines as Siemens.
Even Vienna getting a small order compare to the whole system. BBD is getting the order and replacing Siemens.
All the cities I noted have 3 or more different manufactures.
Its possible Mississauga and Hamilton could be part of Finch order or could be a separate RFP, which should happen. If it did, we may see 3-5 different suppliers for Ontario.
TTC will have some hard choices to make by June 2017 if they will stay the course or put things on hold for a few years. They should make the call to issue a tender for the 60 plus cars by year end with an ASP delivery.I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.
I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.
They wouldn't the first time. What makes you think that they would now?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Alstom seems to be more willing to enter the North American market now compared to a decade ago but I doubt they'll be able to supply any LRVs at the price BBD is doing.They wouldn't the first time. What makes you think that they would now?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
There isn't enough demand that another company (Alstom, Siemens, etc.) start a full production factory in the GTA. A order of 20 cars each for Hurontario and Hamilton don't justify such thing. TTC's streetcars are too complicated that hardly anyone placed a bid. The only big projects available in the next decade are the T1 subway replacement and supplying Locomotives for Metrolinx.Considering the close proximity of the factory to Toronto, it would be safe to say noone can undercut bbr. Perhaps if the competition can establish a production plant eventually they can compete on price while maintaining profitability as well