[W. K. Lis]

This has got to be the biggest cluster**** of a roll-out I've ever seen. So they implement the SFV machines and then replace them half a year later? And what will they be used for afterwards? This whole plans seems like it's being planned by a high-school student council. /rant

On another note I was brainstorming today on how PRESTO could potentially avoid the 24HR funds update issue and I was thinking, why don't they install wireless receptors at terminal stations so that buses could update every time they reached a terminal? Sure it may not be an instant thing, but it'll surely be 1 or 2 hrs before your funds show up as opposed to 24hrs.

The SRVM will be leased machines.

 

[cplchanb]

The SRVM will be leased machines.

regardless its not the money but the time... we all know how wonderful TTC is with managing their work. They will probably come with another phase in schedule that will take 4X longer to complete than the avg.
They really should have implemented a machine that can be retrofitted with presto readers. Or why cant they design a machine that has presto installed and not turned on.
I find that TTC is still stuck in its own world by using proprietary equipment for as long as they can instead of investing on what all other gta systems have been using for years, asap

PS from their ppt their proposed faregate looks like a bloated whale. Ive seen similar gates with smart card readers require at least 30% less sheet metal and footprint than that.

 

[DKsan]

PS from their ppt their proposed faregate looks like a bloated whale. Ive seen similar gates with smart card readers require at least 30% less sheet metal and footprint than that.

That's because Ontario, unlike half the world, has new, strict accessibility standards. Don't like AODA? Too bad.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Isn't the ticket sales machine permanent ? The ticket validator will be used until old fare media is phased out as well, so what machine exactly will only be used for 2 months?

 

[scamander24]

On another note I was brainstorming today on how PRESTO could potentially avoid the 24HR funds update issue and I was thinking, why don't they install wireless receptors at terminal stations so that buses could update every time they reached a terminal? Sure it may not be an instant thing, but it'll surely be 1 or 2 hrs before your funds show up as opposed to 24hrs.

OC Transpo is doing exactly that.

 

[Voltz]

OC Transpo is doing exactly that.

That looks like they are using a cellular data connection rather than wireless transmitters at bus terminals.

 

[nfitz]

This has got to be the biggest cluster**** of a roll-out I've ever seen.

Your kidding right? Do you not remember the big Ontario photo Health Card rollout by the NDP government? That went to badly that they've delayed full implementation for 2 decades now? Don't you remember when the NDP announced it, it was supposed to be simpler with the combined Health Card and Driver's Licence?

So they implement the SFV machines and then replace them half a year later?

Half a year? Where do you get that? It's less than 3 months after the first implementation at the end of the month, to the replacement in November.

And what will they be used for afterwards?

Who cares. They are rented. How does it impact anyone what are done with them afterwards? And what are we talking - 20 machines? 5 on-street ... and 4 on the two streetcars going in service August 30th; I can't imagine there will be 5 streetcars arriving in the 9 weeks from when the first 2 roll.

This whole plans seems like it's being planned by a high-school student council.

Not sure where you are coming from here. Surely making sure the new system is 100% working is the responsible thing to do. That doesn't sound like high-school to me.

Isn't the ticket sales machine permanent ?

No. The ones that go into service at the end of the month are temporary, rental machines.

The ticket validator will be used until old fare media is phased out as well, so what machine exactly will only be used for 2 months?

The interim single ride vending machines. See http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...Implementation_at_the_TTC_-_Status_Update.pdf

 

[W. K. Lis]

They'll still need some sort of cash single-ride machines for the occasional user, like tourists (and Rob Ford).

 

[nfitz]

They'll still need some sort of cash single-ride machines for the occasional user, like tourists (and Rob Ford).

Which would be why they will be installing them. Nobody has ever suggested otherwise for the long-term.

As for Rob Ford - I doubt a lying, wife-beating, drug-addicted piece of work like him would be paying a fare, even if he does wander on in a drunken stupor.

 

[BMO]

Your kidding right? Do you not remember the big Ontario photo Health Card rollout by the NDP government? That went to badly that they've delayed full implementation for 2 decades now? Don't you remember when the NDP announced it, it was supposed to be simpler with the combined Health Card and Driver's Licence?

Half a year? Where do you get that? It's less than 3 months after the first implementation at the end of the month, to the replacement in November.

Who cares. They are rented. How does it impact anyone what are done with them afterwards? And what are we talking - 20 machines? 5 on-street ... and 4 on the two streetcars going in service August 30th; I can't imagine there will be 5 streetcars arriving in the 9 weeks from when the first 2 roll.

Not sure where you are coming from here. Surely making sure the new system is 100% working is the responsible thing to do. That doesn't sound like high-school to me.

No. The ones that go into service at the end of the month are temporary, rental machines.

The interim single ride vending machines. See http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...Implementation_at_the_TTC_-_Status_Update.pdf

So you're saying it's a good thing to confuse people with some random machine for three months then switch it again and confuse them once again with PRESTO machines? . They should have bought machines that could be retrofitted with PRESTO after the three months. Now you've got to pay for someone to install the machine, build the SFV software and customize it for the TTC, then pay someone to uninstall it and then pay someone else to install the PRESTO machine and develop the TTC customized UI/UX inputs and coding. Hell, even YRT viva has machines on the rapidway that can give single fares....it's called synergies. The former are sunken costs that have no value added to the TTC and the latter are an investment that will be used for years. It's better to just wait three months to roll-out PRESTO.

oh and also...about making sure it's 100% perfect is the responsible thing to do. As someone who develops applications and has had a hand in various transit ITS rollouts I can guarantee it's not going to be working 100%. These things take months even after implementation to debug. So what you're effectively getting is one system that needs to be debugged and then you're implementing another that needs to be debugged. This is essentially guaranteeing a longer time passengers and users will be dealing with bugs and errors. And no matter how much testing you do, real-world use is always different and bound to create bugs. So yes I do think this is a joke and like the various "planned" high school dances my high-school council attempted to plan

 

[BMO]

OC Transpo is doing exactly that.

Yea this is cellular which is actually better, they're pulling the data 6 times a day so roughly every 4 hours or even higher if they choose to logically pull them from AM peak to PM peak (roughly every 1.2 hours). This would be both cheaper and better than the solution I proposed. I thought this would be super expensive considering the number of buses, the cellular retrofits, paying for the ISP, and considering the amount of user data that would be passed, but maybe it just sends specific data instead of the entire batch. It's quicker and easier to implement.

 

[smallspy]

So you're saying it's a good thing to confuse people with some random machine for three months then switch it again and confuse them once again with PRESTO machines? . They should have bought machines that could be retrofitted with PRESTO after the three months. Now you've got to pay for someone to install the machine, build the SFV software and customize it for the TTC, then pay someone to uninstall it and then pay someone else to install the PRESTO machine and develop the TTC customized UI/UX inputs and coding. Hell, even YRT viva has machines on the rapidway that can give single fares....it's called synergies. The former are sunken costs that have no value added to the TTC and the latter are an investment that will be used for years. It's better to just wait three months to roll-out PRESTO.

oh and also...about making sure it's 100% perfect is the responsible thing to do. As someone who develops applications and has had a hand in various transit ITS rollouts I can guarantee it's not going to be working 100%. These things take months even after implementation to debug. So what you're effectively getting is one system that needs to be debugged and then you're implementing another that needs to be debugged. This is essentially guaranteeing a longer time passengers and users will be dealing with bugs and errors. And no matter how much testing you do, real-world use is always different and bound to create bugs. So yes I do think this is a joke and like the various "planned" high school dances my high-school council attempted to plan

So, what do you suggest then? Allow people to get on for free until Presto is ready? Not put the new cars into service until November?

Like it or not, there is a 3 month gap between the time the new cars are scheduled to begin service, and the time that the Presto machines and final hardware are ready for service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[cplchanb]

So, what do you suggest then? Allow people to get on for free until Presto is ready? Not put the new cars into service until November?

Like it or not, there is a 3 month gap between the time the new cars are scheduled to begin service, and the time that the Presto machines and final hardware are ready for service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I think he is suggesting that the better way is to buy machines that can be easily retrofitted with presto or have presto already installed but turned off. Presto readers work in parallel to single tickets. That will save on the need to order new equipment and waste nearly new equipment. yrt successfully did this to their busses. Where will the machines go once it has been replaced? Who will buy a proprietary machine tailored only to Ttc? Maybe the odd collector but it seems like it will just be dumped in a warehouse and forgotten or refunded at a loss to Ttc.

And how sure are you that it will be three months? Last I heard Ttc Ddnt have a really good track record with keeping on track with time so I would be surprised if they were on the dot this time. However by wasting resources on unnecessary steps is not the answer.

The biggest issue I have with this and many of Ttc and other metrolinx projects is the lack of common sense and a sense of urgency to complete projects on time.

 

[BMO]

So, what do you suggest then? Allow people to get on for free until Presto is ready? Not put the new cars into service until November?

Like it or not, there is a 3 month gap between the time the new cars are scheduled to begin service, and the time that the Presto machines and final hardware are ready for service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

that's actually exactly what I propose, goodness knows they've been delayed enough and life got on just fine. what's three more months? As mentioned earlier they don't even have more than two or three streetcars, seems like a waste of time and money when you can wait and do it right once. OR buy machines that could be retrofitted with PRESTO after this three month transition.

 

[nfitz]

So you're saying it's a good thing to confuse people with some random machine for three months then switch it again and confuse them once again with PRESTO machines?

It's not a good thing, but it's better than the other option, which was delaying putting the 2 new streetcars into service for another 2 months.

They should have bought machines that could be retrofitted with PRESTO after the three months.

Sure, in an ideal world. Clearly that wasn't an option, or else they'd have done it.

Now you've got to pay for someone to install the machine, build the SFV software and customize it for the TTC, then pay someone to uninstall it and then pay someone else to install the PRESTO machine and develop the TTC customized UI/UX inputs and coding.

What are you talking about? They are using the same model SRVM they've already had in service without complaint for years that take cash and credit cards. Presumably one takes the existing software and hardware, and just adds the ability to accept tokens.

It's better to just wait three months to roll-out PRESTO.

Just delay the streetcars for three months? Though surely the last day of August to first day of November is 2 months (though given Presto's inability to meet a deadline, who knows how long it will really be) #mathfail

oh and also...about making sure it's 100% perfect is the responsible thing to do. As someone who develops applications and has had a hand in various transit ITS rollouts I can guarantee it's not going to be working 100%. These things take months even after implementation to debug.

Sure ... but how many years have TTC been operating this virtually identical SRVMs already?

So what you're effectively getting is one system that needs to be debugged and then you're implementing another that needs to be debugged.

All you need to do is adding tokens to the existing TTC SRVMs, and power them from a vehicle, rather than outside. Aren't you overstating this?

This is essentially guaranteeing a longer time passengers and users will be dealing with bugs and errors. And no matter how much testing you do, real-world use is always different and bound to create bugs. So yes I do think this is a joke and like the various "planned" high school dances my high-school council attempted to plan

I think you are dramatically overstating this. And I really don't appreciate the eye rolling.