News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.9K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 40K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.1K     0 

I find Presto lags more than other similar systems, in that it takes a second or two for the reader to read the card. I don't think it's a major issue though.

A question to anyone that might know. The Presto readers in buses/streetcars, are they stand-alone units? That is, are they just mounted and given a power-source? Or is there a data connection from the reader to another processor or antenna or something? Just curious as to whether it's that difficult to install them on the current (old) streetcars, and if they can be easily removed and placed on other vehicles once the streetcars are retired.

In Ottawa, which has Gen 2 Presto, the readers are just mounted on the vertical hand rail at the rear entrances, and on a horizontal bar on the front. I'm not sure how the connection works, whether it's inside the pole or if it's battery powered or what, but there are no visible cables connecting to it.

Yes, the readers in Ottawa are faster, and identical to the type fitted on the new streetcars and shown on the turnstile in the drawing, the Scheidt & Bachmann FareGo Val OV|40. There is no need to wait for the reader to reset to the ready screen, the next card can be tapped I believe as soon as the light goes out. The ones on the new streetcar have a slightly different display, and a different sticker in the "Tap Zone" showing the new card orientation (landscape) while Ottawa's readers still have the old portrait card shown.

I've been on buses in Ottawa that were wired for the PRESTO readers but not installed yet. The connection is a simple 2 wire power connection, along with a standard Ethernet connection. In Ottawa this connection runs to the existing on-board LAN, and the readers are integrated into the existing Clever Devices touchscreen for driver control. The screen shows the fare class of the person who has tapped at the front of the bus, allows the driver to set the fare class (express or regular) or disable the readers, as well as processing companion fares. The screen does not show the fare class of the persons tapping on at the back doors of articulated or double decker buses.

It should be pretty simple to swap Presto readers between buses and streetcars; there were plenty of buses that were nearing their due date for retirement in the 905 fitted with Presto machines.

Although the customer-facing machines are all of a similar type and are likely reusable between situations, the exact installation will depend on the features required and what's available already on board. Ottawa's system is highly integrated, with the devices taking advantage of the existing touchscreen. They also use the existing connection to the cellular network to allow for updates every 4 hours, and don't have to wait for the garage at night. Older PRESTO devices in the GTA are more self-contained, and include their own touchscreen for the driver which connects to a secondary reader. If a driver interface is required to set the fares on streetcars, PRESTO's current supplier of equipment doesn't offer a direct replacement for this type of device, although they do have a unit for on-board ticket sales that could probably be adapted to fit the purpose. If a touchscreen driver interface is also required the TTC buses, the economies of scale make developing a more custom device possible, and switching them between the old streetcars and buses in the future is a possibility, though the new streetcars don't require a touchscreen. If it's determined that there doesn't need to be a driver interface, or one already exists that can be used, then the same reader that is used on the new Streetcars could also be used on the old ones.

The Generation 2 Ottawa presto readers are faster.

Compared to the Presto readers on GO network, the small Generation 2 readers are small pods on poles, so you can plaster an area with lots more readers, more cheaply. This compensates greatly.

Are you referring to the on-board transaction processor, or the Single Fare Transaction Processor which is used for the O-Train in Ottawa? If you mean the SFTP for the trains, I don't think it will be any easier to install than the ones currently used by GO, and probably wouldn't be the same one anyways as the Ottawa SFTPs aren't available with buttons for fare overrides.
 
Side note, but it is a shame that Google Wallet never came to Canada. Considering all the RFID terminals we have here, it could have iPhones really look second rate to Android. As it stands, I only turn on NFC to show off than for any practical application.

Many Canadian banks (I think it's the banks, doesn't seem to be the carriers) are building their own phone based wallet systems.

This is the one that I use:
https://www.ugo.ca/

Still quite limited and in the trial phase but it is usable.
 
Last edited:
I find Presto lags more than other similar systems, in that it takes a second or two for the reader to read the card. I don't think it's a major issue though.

A question to anyone that might know. The Presto readers in buses/streetcars, are they stand-alone units? That is, are they just mounted and given a power-source? Or is there a data connection from the reader to another processor or antenna or something? Just curious as to whether it's that difficult to install them on the current (old) streetcars, and if they can be easily removed and placed on other vehicles once the streetcars are retired.

It just needs a power source. Then when the bus returns to the yard it gets uploaded through Wi-Fi or some other means to the central network (it's for this reason that it takes 24 hours for your fare to be loaded...the readers themselves have to be updated to to know that you need to have your card topped up to ex amount of $$ if the value is equal to or less than what the system says, otherwise it just deducts the value from your card if your card has already been topped up at another station, bus or kiosk.

Buses transmit data at their yards through Wi-Fi for other things like automatic passengers counts and diagnostic data (sometimes GPS data if it's not transmitted and collected in real-time).
 
Last edited:
Are you referring to the on-board transaction processor, or the Single Fare Transaction Processor which is used for the O-Train in Ottawa?
Well, perhaps GO mods are needed.
So, I'll amend my suggestion -- any variant of that "reader on a pole" technology, but modified for GO's purpose.

I was more talking about reader expenses. Not installation expenses. The ones used by GO looks like it is more expensive to manufacture, than the "pod" type readers (more materials than a simple parking meter pole, "pod on a pole" reader). If they are going to do a major RER expansion and also put more readers around, it's worth considering that a pole-in-ground is probably cheaper.

As I understand it, Dufferin subway station was just reopened from modernization but is not Presto enabled. No doubt there will be some sort of future disruption to allow this to be done - is it too much to hope for that all the necessary wiring is plumbed in, just wanting for gates etc. to be dropped in?

On the subject of installation expenses:
As for installation expenses, they could reduce install costs by eliminating the Ethernet too: I don't think Ethernet is necessary (though a jack should be available for convenience-of-data and upcoming realtime online balance refills -- in locations where Ethernet is available); it would even be upgraded to also work over WiFi (2.4Ghz+5GHz redundancy from interference/RFI) -- perhaps that why TTC installed WiFi at some stations -- it was documented somewhere that WiFi was needed too for infrastructural reasons; and providing WiFi to the public was not even the primary reason, apparently. This could include wireless transmission to future Presto readers at these TTC stations (to speed up reader installation). Tap balance updates are done offline, so it doesn't even require nonstop reliable realtime over WiFi -- which means WiFi is good enough -- the WiFi only needs to work well enough for sufficiently frequent updates of card validity and balances (e.g. hourly or more often), and central can raise an alarm if a reader hasn't reported in for too long. Then the only requirement is simply power, and so they can plaster an area with lots of inexpensive Presto readers. For example, the upcoming new Prestoified TTC turnstiles may use WiFi to update the Presto refill balances. The turnstiles already have power, and it prevents TTC from digging up the floor to install networking infrastructure. No new wires. So only turnstile modification is required.

_________

On a related subject (which may have come up already, but I missed); are any of the Presto readers installed anywhere in Ontario, capable of self-contained transmission? (e.g. WiFi/3G/LTE/etc built directly into each individual reader, separately of adjacent readers). Since that's really inexpensive to add that technology nowadays (compared to the total cost of reader), I'd bet at least one probably is already, but which?
 
Last edited:
Yes, the readers in Ottawa are faster, and identical to the type fitted on the new streetcars and shown on the turnstile in the drawing, the Scheidt & Bachmann FareGo Val OV|40. There is no need to wait for the reader to reset to the ready screen, the next card can be tapped I believe as soon as the light goes out. The ones on the new streetcar have a slightly different display, and a different sticker in the "Tap Zone" showing the new card orientation (landscape) while Ottawa's readers still have the old portrait card shown.

I've been on buses in Ottawa that were wired for the PRESTO readers but not installed yet. The connection is a simple 2 wire power connection, along with a standard Ethernet connection. In Ottawa this connection runs to the existing on-board LAN, and the readers are integrated into the existing Clever Devices touchscreen for driver control. The screen shows the fare class of the person who has tapped at the front of the bus, allows the driver to set the fare class (express or regular) or disable the readers, as well as processing companion fares. The screen does not show the fare class of the persons tapping on at the back doors of articulated or double decker buses.

It just needs a power source. Then when the bus returns to the yard it gets uploaded through Wi-Fi or some other means to the central network (it's for this reason that it takes 24 hours for your fare to be loaded...the readers themselves have to be updated to to know that you need to have your card topped up to ex amount of $$ if the value is equal to or less than what the system says, otherwise it just deducts the value from your card if your card has already been topped up at another station, bus or kiosk.

Buses transmit data at their yards through Wi-Fi for other things like automatic passengers counts and diagnostic data (sometimes GPS data if it's not transmitted and collected in real-time).

Thanks for the information!

I didn't know the bus drivers in Ottawa got all that info on their screen, it's interesting.
 
Here's the write-up that the TTC has on PRESTO, from their website at this link:

PRESTO Fare System

Metrolinx and TTC developing a plan to accelerate rollout of PRESTO

Subject to approvals, TTC and Metrolinx have developed the following program:

  • Mobilizing TTC and Metrolinx resources and vendors to complete enabling work as quickly as possible.
  • PRESTO will be available at 26 subway stations by July 2015, up from the current 15 stations.
  • By the end of 2015 all legacy streetcars would have PRESTO devices installed on their front doors. Accomplishing this involves Metrolinx receiving support from the TTC to divert the equipment scheduled for the new streetcars, which have been delayed, to the existing, legacy streetcars.
  • A plan to enable PRESTO on the TTC bus fleet is being developed with the TTC so that PRESTO cards can be used on all buses by the end of 2016.
  • The TTC is also working to bring brand new fare gates to all TTC stations.
  • Focusing the initial deployment on base PRESTO services currently available on the other transit services, and adding other functions, such as payment by credit and debit cards, to subsequent releases.
  • The objective is to allow customers to be able to use PRESTO cards at all 69 TTC subway stations and throughout the entire TTC by the end of 2016.
Metrolinx and the TTC are committed to ensuring that PRESTO is delivered across the TTC system as quickly as possible while maintaining quality and ensuring a positive customer experience.

For more information about PRESTO and TTC, please visit www.getpres.to.

PRESTO is currently available at the following subway stations:

  • Bloor-Yonge
  • College
  • Don Mills
  • Downsview
  • Dundas
  • Finch
  • Islington
  • Kipling
  • Queen’s Park
  • Spadina
  • St George
  • St Patrick
  • Union
  • Yorkdale
  • York Mills
 
It just needs a power source. Then when the bus returns to the yard it gets uploaded through Wi-Fi or some other means to the central network (it's for this reason that it takes 24 hours for your fare to be loaded...the readers themselves have to be updated to to know that you need to have your card topped up to ex amount of $$ if the value is equal to or less than what the system says, otherwise it just deducts the value from your card if your card has already been topped up at another station, bus or kiosk.

Buses transmit data at their yards through Wi-Fi for other things like automatic passengers counts and diagnostic data (sometimes GPS data if it's not transmitted and collected in real-time).

The readers themselves don't have Wi-Fi built in for that purpose though, they connect to the existing Wi-Fi bridge already in the bus (at least in Ottawa). The sales sheet for the Scheidt & Bachmann FareGo Val OV|40 says that the readers have WLAN for maintenance and servicing the reader only, and that communications take place over Ethernet LAN.

Well, perhaps GO mods are needed.
So, I'll amend my suggestion -- any variant of that "reader on a pole" technology, but modified for GO's purpose.

I was more talking about reader expenses. Not installation expenses. The ones used by GO looks like it is more expensive to manufacture, than the "pod" type readers (more materials than a simple parking meter pole, "pod on a pole" reader). If they are going to do a major RER expansion and also put more readers around, it's worth considering that a pole-in-ground is probably cheaper.



On the subject of installation expenses:
As for installation expenses, they could reduce install costs by eliminating the Ethernet too: I don't think Ethernet is necessary (though a jack should be available for convenience-of-data and upcoming realtime online balance refills -- in locations where Ethernet is available); it would even be upgraded to also work over WiFi (2.4Ghz+5GHz redundancy from interference/RFI) -- perhaps that why TTC installed WiFi at some stations -- it was documented somewhere that WiFi was needed too for infrastructural reasons; and providing WiFi to the public was not even the primary reason, apparently. This could include wireless transmission to future Presto readers at these TTC stations (to speed up reader installation). Tap balance updates are done offline, so it doesn't even require nonstop reliable realtime over WiFi -- which means WiFi is good enough -- the WiFi only needs to work well enough for sufficiently frequent updates of card validity and balances (e.g. hourly or more often), and central can raise an alarm if a reader hasn't reported in for too long. Then the only requirement is simply power, and so they can plaster an area with lots of inexpensive Presto readers. For example, the upcoming new Prestoified TTC turnstiles may use WiFi to update the Presto refill balances. The turnstiles already have power, and it prevents TTC from digging up the floor to install networking infrastructure. No new wires. So only turnstile modification is required.

_________

On a related subject (which may have come up already, but I missed); are any of the Presto readers installed anywhere in Ontario, capable of self-contained transmission? (e.g. WiFi/3G/LTE/etc built directly into each individual reader, separately of adjacent readers). Since that's really inexpensive to add that technology nowadays (compared to the total cost of reader), I'd bet at least one probably is already, but which?

I forgot that the Scheidt & Bachmann FareGo Val SV|40 SFTPs for the train in Ottawa do have a single button, along with a headphone jack for audio out. It may be possible to add more buttons, but Scheidt & Bachmann also makes a device, the SV|50 similar to the existing readers on GO, that has up to three buttons. Rather than a pole it appears to use a piece of rolled sheet metal, but it may be cheaper overall than modifying the SV|40.

Sales sheets:
http://www.scheidt-bachmann.com/uploads/media/Productinfo_FareGo_Val_SV40_EN_Neu.pdf
http://www.scheidt-bachmann.com/uploads/media/Productinfo_FareGo_Val_SV50_EN_Neu.pdf

Using Wi-Fi only makes sense if the power is already there, since if you have to run conduit to supply power to a new pedestal reader, the cost to also run conduit with Ethernet is marginal and good future-proofing. Using Wi-Fi only makes sense if the power is already available, such as at a turnstile, and even then may not be a good value situation since the use of credit cards in the future will be much easier if a reliable connection is available. If you look at the sales sheets above, you will see that the Pedestal SV|50 has support for WLAN operation, while the Pedestal SV|40 and On-Board OV|40 used in Ottawa and on the Streetcars do not.

I believe that the installation of Wi-Fi was not specifically about making the existing internet access wireless, but that there was no internet access available at all in many stations. Installing internet access, and potentially Wi-Fi, was required to accept Debit/Credit transactions at the collector's booths.

With regard to wireless connectivity, I cannot speak to the Thales Gen. 1 Devices, but the Scheidt & Bachmann Gen 2 Devices used in Ottawa list 3G/LTE connectivity as an option, even though they don't list WLAN as an option. I doubt they have it installed though.

Having read that the TTC will try and move devices originally slated for the new Streetcars to the old ones, they would be referring to the OV|40 devices, which rely on Ethernet. Since the streetcars only have one fare class and report to a car barn reliably every night, there may not be a need for driver interaction and a Wi-Fi bridge likely already exists, if not full on cellular data (location updates). If the devices need to be fully self-contained, they could be ordered with the cellular modem built in, and then the SIM could just be pulled out of them when they are moved to the new streetcars and wired into the LAN on the new vehicles.
 
Last edited:
The readers themselves don't have Wi-Fi built in for that purpose though, they connect to the existing Wi-Fi bridge already in the bus (at least in Ottawa). The sales sheet for the Scheidt & Bachmann FareGo Val OV|40 says that the readers have WLAN for maintenance and servicing the reader only, and that communications take place over Ethernet LAN.

Correct, I was just putting it in simpler terms. The units themselves would have to connect to the existing electronics on the bus and integrate with it. That or someone physically inserts a LAN cable and downloads the data directly from the machine.
 
Correct, I was just putting it in simpler terms. The units themselves would have to connect to the existing electronics on the bus and integrate with it. That or someone physically inserts a LAN cable and downloads the data directly from the machine.

OK, I just thought it was an important differentiation to make if we're talking about installing the readers on older vehicles, which may or may not not have the necessary equipment already installed.
 
I think GO buses display the fare class as well given that the bus drivers seem to be aware who has a student Presto card.

They would, but that screen is specific to the PRESTO device. In Ottawa, the readers were integrated into the existing Clever Devices CAD/AVL system, and an additional screen for the driver is not installed just for PRESTO.
 
Now that Ottawa has PRESTO, the question is how is OC Transpo going to integrate with other transit systems in the GTHA?

You can already use Presto cards on both systems, so I don't know how else you expect them to integrate. It'd be a challenge to tap on a bus in Mississauga and get to Ottawa before the transfer expires (so transferring between OC Transpo and GTHA systems isn't an issue).
 

Back
Top