[CDL.TO]

London is looking to change basically throw away their existing Oyster technology and change completely over to the "open payment" approach. Although next gen PRESTO is to be compatible with open payment, I'm still curious as to whether it can offer the same capabilities as the main PRESTO system (there's a difference between "tap your credit card and grab a transfer" and full PRESTO capabilities of tracking transfers and calculating co-fares).

It sounds like the London system depends on high-speed communication with a central system, compared to the PRESTO approach whereby the relevant information is stored on the card itself.

It's interesting to consider what recent technological developments mean for the future of PRESTO.

-----

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-to-replace-oyster-smart-card-technology.html

TfL plans to replace Oyster smart card technology

UK: Transport for London is exploring options to replace the technology which is currently used inside its Oyster smart cards.

Under the proposal, future Oyster cards would incorporate the contactless payment card technology which is used by bank credit and debit cards. This would allow fare payments to be handled using the proprietary Transit Transaction Model of payment rules and software which TfL developed to enable passengers to pay for travel using contactless bank cards instead of a dedicated smart card.

The Transit Transaction Model was rolled out across rail modes last year, and by moving the focus of the ticketing system from the smart card to the back office has provided TfL with the ability to offer CPC users a greater range of ticketing products, including a more flexible range of fare capping periods than was possible with the older Oyster technology. The development of a TfL CPC Oyster card would extend these benefits to smart card users.

The existing Oyster brand would be retained for the TfL CPC, with just the card technology changing. Passengers would apply for and manage the new card online, with a refundable deposit but no transaction fees for travel. The TfL CPC would only be used for travel, and would not offer the ability to make other payments such as at coffee shops.

If the supply industry response proves positive, the TfL CPC Oyster cards could be ready for passenger use in early 2016.

 

[Electrify]

London is looking to change basically throw away their existing Oyster technology and change completely over to the "open payment" approach. Although next gen PRESTO is to be compatible with open payment, I'm still curious as to whether it can offer the same capabilities as the main PRESTO system (there's a difference between "tap your credit card and grab a transfer" and full PRESTO capabilities of tracking transfers and calculating co-fares).

It sounds like the London system depends on high-speed communication with a central system, compared to the PRESTO approach whereby the relevant information is stored on the card itself.

It's interesting to consider what recent technological developments mean for the future of PRESTO.

-----

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-to-replace-oyster-smart-card-technology.html

TfL plans to replace Oyster smart card technology

UK: Transport for London is exploring options to replace the technology which is currently used inside its Oyster smart cards.

Under the proposal, future Oyster cards would incorporate the contactless payment card technology which is used by bank credit and debit cards. This would allow fare payments to be handled using the proprietary Transit Transaction Model of payment rules and software which TfL developed to enable passengers to pay for travel using contactless bank cards instead of a dedicated smart card.

The Transit Transaction Model was rolled out across rail modes last year, and by moving the focus of the ticketing system from the smart card to the back office has provided TfL with the ability to offer CPC users a greater range of ticketing products, including a more flexible range of fare capping periods than was possible with the older Oyster technology. The development of a TfL CPC Oyster card would extend these benefits to smart card users.

The existing Oyster brand would be retained for the TfL CPC, with just the card technology changing. Passengers would apply for and manage the new card online, with a refundable deposit but no transaction fees for travel. The TfL CPC would only be used for travel, and would not offer the ability to make other payments such as at coffee shops.

If the supply industry response proves positive, the TfL CPC Oyster cards could be ready for passenger use in early 2016.

The problem with just using debit and credit cards is that it would be difficult to provide fare discounts for buying in bulk (like tickets/tokens and passes provide). The idea behind smart cards is that one is prepaying for their rides, putting up more money now to save in the long term.

However, seeing as the TTC will be changing their fare structure next week so that students and seniors only save a nickel between cash and tickets, thus the only people in these groups who will appreciate the savings are those with strong opinions on the bag fee, it may not be such a bad idea.

 

[CDL.TO]

TfL has a well-done video explaining how to use the new system:

[video=youtube;QinGP0TaCCU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QinGP0TaCCU[/video]

 

[Catenary]

TFL has an interesting solution, in that cards are not charged immediately, but rather recorded for the central computer to process at the end of the day. There is of course some risk involved on the part of TFL, especially with debit cards which cannot have a pre-authorization put on the account, but my guess is that this risk is lower than the cost of distributing Oyster cards.

Another interesting issue is penalty fares, since the handheld readers used for fare inspections don't have a network connection (subway tunnels etc.). This means when a fare inspector taps your bank card on their reader, it doesn't show them if you have paid or not. Instead, the handheld reader records the card number and the computer determines if the card was used to pay at the end of the day. If it wasn't, the computer simply charges the 150 pound penalty right to the card. This works because it is a "Penalty Fare" and not a fine as we have in North America. On buses which are a closed space, the fare inspectors simply get a printout of all cards that have been used to tap onto the bus from the driver and compare that list with the passengers' cards.

 

[mdrejhon]

That could be a problem for people who have many debit cards, and taps the wrong card on the fare inspector reader. That would cause a nasty surprise and a hassle. I hope they have compensation procedures for that.

 

[TOareaFan]

That could be a problem for people who have many debit cards, and taps the wrong card on the fare inspector reader. That would cause a nasty surprise and a hassle. I hope they have compensation procedures for that.

I have never understood the need that some people have to complicate their lives with things like multiple debit cards!

 

[W. K. Lis]

I have never understood the need that some people have to complicate their lives with things like multiple debit cards!

One for your own bank account. Number two for the joint account. Number three for your business account. Number four for you first born's account. Etc. I can see it happen.

 

[Jonny5]

One for your own bank account. Number two for the joint account. Number three for your business account. Number four for you first born's account. Etc. I can see it happen.

There's also some great reasons not to keep everything at one financial institution in the age of big data. All banks have for years used in depth monitoring of your transactions to build a risk profile of who you are and what level of service to provide you, but it's way more intense these days. It all eventually goes back to the service level. Want to renew your mortgage or apply for a line of credit? First thing they do is look at where you spend your money. But they can't do that if you spend it from another bank's debit card. RBC was even caught red-handed last year changing their mobile app so it would upload your browser history to them. Would you want the loan officer to look through your browser history while negotiating a mortgage interest rate?

 

[nfitz]

I have never understood the need that some people have to complicate their lives with things like multiple debit cards!

I often have 2 Presto cards with me ... it's hard to get a 7-year old to keep their Presto card in a safe place.

Fortunately Presto is more advanced than Oyster, so this would never be an issue here. Nor is there limitation on loading online - which you can only do if you specify WHERE you'll be tapping to get the load ... not very useful on buses!

 

[CDL.TO]

TFL has an interesting solution, in that cards are not charged immediately, but rather recorded for the central computer to process at the end of the day. There is of course some risk involved on the part of TFL, especially with debit cards which cannot have a pre-authorization put on the account, but my guess is that this risk is lower than the cost of distributing Oyster cards.

Another interesting issue is penalty fares, since the handheld readers used for fare inspections don't have a network connection (subway tunnels etc.). This means when a fare inspector taps your bank card on their reader, it doesn't show them if you have paid or not. Instead, the handheld reader records the card number and the computer determines if the card was used to pay at the end of the day. If it wasn't, the computer simply charges the 150 pound penalty right to the card. This works because it is a "Penalty Fare" and not a fine as we have in North America. On buses which are a closed space, the fare inspectors simply get a printout of all cards that have been used to tap onto the bus from the driver and compare that list with the passengers' cards.

Very informative! Thanks!

 

[Palma]

One for your own bank account. Number two for the joint account. Number three for your business account. Number four for you first born's account. Etc. I can see it happen.

that is ridiculous. One for personal and business I understand

 

[wopchop]

that is ridiculous. One for personal and business I understand

Unless you and your partner happen to use the same bank, it is pretty likely that anyone with a joint account is going to have a second debit card.

 

[TOareaFan]

Unless you and your partner happen to use the same bank, it is pretty likely that anyone with a joint account is going to have a second debit card.

may not be a modern attitude but I just don't understand why anyone with a life partner has anything other than a joint account. My wife and I both banked with the same institution before getting hitched....we picked one of our accounts to convert to joint and closed the other one. Anything else seems, to me, to just complicate things and lead to unnecessary bank fees.

 

[mpd618]

That could be a problem for people who have many debit cards, and taps the wrong card on the fare inspector reader. That would cause a nasty surprise and a hassle. I hope they have compensation procedures for that.

I don't really understand how this comment sparked a discussion about the merits of having multiple debit cards. It doesn't matter whether you don't need or want multiple debit cards - other people do.

Moreover, I believe open payment systems generally accept all kinds of NFC cards, both debit and credit. A lot of people have more than one card that can be tapped.

 

[rbt]

Moreover, I believe open payment systems generally accept all kinds of NFC cards, both debit and credit. A lot of people have more than one card that can be tapped.

And if the system is moderately intelligent they can all be registered to identify the exact same person and any card will work just as well as any other card (including paying through the persons preferred method of payment).

Tap with your debit card, have TTC charge your VISA ($20 charge because you ride frequently and have an auto-top-up configured for cheaper per-trip rate), and later confirm you paid for a fare enforcement officer by tapping your American Express. The card, for the purpose of the transit system, can be identification of the individual person and their back-office (Presto) account. It does not need to also represent the method of payment. There may be many registered ways of identifying a person, including a unique NFC phone code in a TTC app.