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I've started using YRT/Viva a bit more recently and yesterday I had my first overcharge/error on Presto requiring that I request a refund from them. First significant issue I've had with Presto since getting it in 2011. I was doing some business at the York University campus, and took the #52 407 east GO bus from the York University Bus Loop to Richmond Hill Centre. From there, I took Viva Blue up to Aurora and the YRT home.

As the Viva Blue trip was a 2-zone ride, I pressed the 2-zone button on the machine and tapped, and I was very surprised to see the full $4.40 adult 2-zone fare deducted. Having just taken the GO bus, I was eligible for the $0.75 GO co-fare on YRT/Viva, then the zone upgrade is $1.00, so my fare should have been $1.75; having paid $4.40, I was overcharged $2.65, or in other words I paid just over 2.5 times the fare I should have.

I contacted YRT/Viva's customer service, and amazingly from my e-mails with them it looks like they'll be sending me cash/a ticket/a cheque in the mail for $2.65 rather than refund the amount to my Presto card--which is strange seeing as GO does refunds right to the card. If this ends up happening, I'm going to write a letter to my MPP--it's not okay for Presto to overcharge people (and YRT/Viva, unlike the TTC, has had it for *years*, so I've got to imagine a LOT of people have been overcharged over the years...), but it's also not acceptable for paper, printing, addressing, and mailing costs to be required for a $2.65 credit for a digital payment system!

What does the TTC do for Presto error/overcharge refunds? I think I've heard they mail you a token, is that right?
 
Steve X said:
It's cheaper to handle cash than to pay presto. The TTC knows this too. Presto charges the TTC 5.25% and only 2% for OCTranspo of every fare. Of course they'll force that number to be much higher.
Click to expand...

TTC is leasing the equipment and paying nothing upfront; OCTranspo paid a lump-sum to cover the original rollout and equipment.
 
rbt said:
TTC is leasing the equipment and paying nothing upfront; OCTranspo paid a lump-sum to cover the original rollout and equipment.
Click to expand...

Correct. To merchants (Metrolinx/TTC) the cost of a credit card transaction costs between 1.5% and 3% depending on the credit card used (points cards are more expensive). Apple Pay then adds on about 0.15% on top of this. 2% is an average cost per transaction but it varies by retailer.

Then you have to add on the cost of the processing software (what Ontario/Accenture built). Skipping the boondoggle it is not unreasonable to expect that is would average out to 0.5%-1% a transaction (assuming Ontario & us as taxpayers are stuck for paying for the overages).

So I expect that the cost to Metrolinx for Ottawa's should be around 2.5% to 3%

Toronto refused to pay any money upfront so they are renting the Presto terminals from Metrolinx. They were probably pretty short-sighted and refused a longer term contract (I expect) so Metrolinx has to recover the cost of the terminals and instillation in 2 years or so (would have been cheaper with a longer term contract...just like a lease on a car).

The cost of a terminal is about $500. Plus 4 hours of instillation and 4 hours of future maintenance @ $100/hr (including union wages and benefits). So total cost is around $1300. Over 2 years they have to collect another $650/yr. 2,000 buses & streetcars x 2 per bus plus turnstiles = 5,000 terminals (approx.). So yearly cost of $3.3M for the lease. Divide by number of trips (500M) = $0.0066 per trip. This is 2.2% of revenue.

So Toronto's cost would be around 4.7% to 5.2%.

Math works!

If Toronto wanted to implement a similar system or do it themselves the same costs apply...there would not be significant savings.
 
rbt said:
There are costs to handling cash, but it's not 10%.
Click to expand...
My point was more to the fact that using cash in 2016 is backwards thinking.

As for the cost of handling cash, given the volumes involved, it would include additional staff requirements as well as bank fees for processing/handling said cash.
 
muller877 said:
If Toronto wanted to implement a similar system or do it themselves the same costs apply...there would not be significant savings.
Click to expand...
And what happens after they recover the initial installation? TTC will be stuck paying the same rate.

The only thing that the TTC seem to have saved is the development fee (for now) but Metrolinx will soon recover that cost too. Initially it would have cost more if TTC went with their own system but eventually TTC would be off the hook and not be in the hands of Metrolinx.
 
doady said:
Yeah, that's the TTC, always on the cutting edge.
Click to expand...

It seems to depend a lot on who is Chair.

Giambrone's 4 year term as Chair did oversee a rather significant modernization to many parts of the TTC, though even more proposals were rejected by agencies outside the TTC (like a modern fare implementation akin to Presto Gen II without involving the province).

The hilarious part of Presto, is the TTC could have implemented their system exactly the way it was tendered and Presto Gen II cards (with appropriate backend transaction processor) still work have worked with it. Accepting a card from Bank-of-Presto didn't require TTC to accept their frontend/middleware implementations too.
 
muller877 said:
Correct. To merchants (Metrolinx/TTC) the cost of a credit card transaction costs between 1.5% and 3% depending on the credit card used (points cards are more expensive). Apple Pay then adds on about 0.15% on top of this. 2% is an average cost per transaction but it varies by retailer.

Then you have to add on the cost of the processing software (what Ontario/Accenture built). Skipping the boondoggle it is not unreasonable to expect that is would average out to 0.5%-1% a transaction (assuming Ontario & us as taxpayers are stuck for paying for the overages).

So I expect that the cost to Metrolinx for Ottawa's should be around 2.5% to 3%=
Click to expand...

Any idea why Metrolinx wants 10% from Ottawa?
 
Presumably because they are short on revenue, and someone is about to lose their job unless they can show a change in cash flow.

And didn't anticipate that this would go public.
 
An interesting question would be whether the contract with the TTC is fully recovering the cost of adding TTC to the mix, with all the added programming and complexity.

I hear grumblings from some 905 transit types who suspect they may be subsidising an under-recovery of costs associated with the TTC implementation. Considering that the 905 had moved to Presto sooner, and had achieved a stable implementation that didn't require added bells or whistles, it's not clear why they would be asked to pay more. I'm told that the cost to these agencies could end up being greater than the cost of returning to a cash-and-paper-transfer regime.

- Paul
 
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crs1026 said:
I found this 2011 document about London's OysterCard, which quoted 14% of revenue, with a goal to reduce to 10%.

http://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s7401/The Future of Ticketing - Appendix 1.pdf

- Paul
Click to expand...

I'm quite bewildered about why this costs so much, and this gives me questions about the value of these fare cards. Are electronic payments worth the service improvements that hundreds of millions of dollars of fare revenue could pay for? If PRESTO cost anywhere near 15% of TTC fare revenue, I think I'd much rather go back to cash payments.
 
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