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I mean specifically for riders. What problem do riders have with the current fare system to which Presto is thought to be the answer? I can’t, for the life of me, think of a good answer.][...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ransfer-to-a-new-set-of-headaches-keenan.html
The article doesn't mention the autoload feature -- it's pretty quick, you don't have to wait 48 hours or go to a station.

Fare integration is important. Sure you could always use cash, but cash was more expensive so if I'm doing the TTC and GO, I used to need two different fare methods (a token and cash), now I don't.

Tokens were a PITA

I don't need a paper transfer

It's faster to tap on to the streetcars then to deposit a fare or to use the machines on the new streetcars.

The 2 hour transfer, while not official, works a lot of the time

The discount for the UPX is great

There are definitely still a number of issues to work out, and I'd much rather have an app I can scan than a physical card I have to remember to carry, but for me, the Presto card is more convenient than tokens and more economical than cash.
 
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Of course it would be over budget. It's something The Star wants to pick on. TTC decided to install them on 200+ older streetcars is BBD's fault and they should really be charged a portion of that bill. If we had 50 new streetcars maybe we don't need to waste as much money.

Deploying on the oldest New Flyer buses is just stupid. They could just skipped them cause those 50 buses retired with readers within 2-5 months of receiving on.

As for new fare gates, they should applaud TTC/Metrolinx cause eventually TTC will have to replace the turnstile when they modernize the fare line in stations. Doing it now means they don't have to waste money installing them on every old turnstile just to rip them out in a couple years.

Also TTC has a much larger fleet of buses than 2012. Approximately 200 more buses!

Agreed but it is typical of the TTC (and most other folks) to approve Project A (PRESTO cards) and then add on sensible (but costly) extras like new fare gates. These are NOT necessary for PRESTO (as currently planned) but were certainly in need of replacement. It's a bit like the City and the local BIAs and neighbourhood associations adding on useful things like streetscaping to TTC track projects on St Clair and Leslie.
 
Of course it would be over budget. It's something The Star wants to pick on. TTC decided to install them on 200+ older streetcars is BBD's fault and they should really be charged a portion of that bill. If we had 50 new streetcars maybe we don't need to waste as much money.

Deploying on the oldest New Flyer buses is just stupid. They could just skipped them cause those 50 buses retired with readers within 2-5 months of receiving on.

As for new fare gates, they should applaud TTC/Metrolinx cause eventually TTC will have to replace the turnstile when they modernize the fare line in stations. Doing it now means they don't have to waste money installing them on every old turnstile just to rip them out in a couple years.

Also TTC has a much larger fleet of buses than 2012. Approximately 200 more buses!
All addressed in the full article. TTC's costs are capped, and wisely so, they were wary of exactly this happening. What the TTC wasn't braced for is the litany of glitches.
 
Fare collection is an overhead, nothing more. Every extra dollar spent on fare collection is (some fraction of) one less bus picking people up and carrying them someplace.
We have seriously missed the boat when we allow an overhead cost to expand. When the cost becomes higher than paper transfers and passes - as it is about to in some parts of 905 - we have obviously slept through Business 101.
I don't often rant about public vs private sector - because it's usually not valid - but no private business would buy the argument that a more costly overhead is OK because it delivers more 'value'. The response should be - figure out how to deliver the value within a continually shrinking envelope.

- Paul
 
Fare collection is an overhead, nothing more. Every extra dollar spent on fare collection is (some fraction of) one less bus picking people up and carrying them someplace.
We have seriously missed the boat when we allow an overhead cost to expand. When the cost becomes higher than paper transfers and passes - as it is about to in some parts of 905 - we have obviously slept through Business 101.
I don't often rant about public vs private sector - because it's usually not valid - but no private business would buy the argument that a more costly overhead is OK because it delivers more 'value'. The response should be - figure out how to deliver the value within a continually shrinking envelope.

- Paul

While overhead is a managed expense private industry does realize that the client experience is very important. Retailers pipe in scents, turn on their air conditioning and allow certain credit cards. And of course have customer loyalty cards. This is business 101. Client experience is important to the TTC and so is customer tracking. This is what a pass systems permits you to do.

They should have outsourced the entire card process to an external company who was responsible for any cost overruns...Ontario messed up almost as bad as EHealth here. But calling a payment system an "overhead" fee without understanding the importance of the data it delivers AND the improved client experience is a false premise.
 
They should have outsourced the entire card process to an external company who was responsible for any cost overruns...Ontario messed up almost as bad as EHealth here. But calling a payment system an "overhead" fee without understanding the importance of the data it delivers AND the improved client experience is a false premise.

It is outsourced to Accenture - but not in a way that would have it absorb the cost overruns. What they should have done is use a firm that has a history of competence instead of failures:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...re-card-had-poor-track-record/article6551526/

AoD
 
But calling a payment system an "overhead" fee without understanding the importance of the data it delivers AND the improved client experience is a false premise.

This is exactly what I was pointing to.

TTC already has a function that collects ridership data. It's manually intensive and primitive, but it has a finite budget and at annual budget time it no doubt runs the gauntlet of challenges - why do you need to do everything you do? If we cut your budget 10%, what could you still deliver and would it meet our key needs? Conversely - if you are asking for more money, what new value are you delivering and why do we really need it?

Presto can deliver perfect, 100% ridership data on every last customer. Who says we need that much data? Was there ever a cost-benefit analysis of this? Would a smaller incremental enhancement of the existing process, at far lower cost, satisfy the main needs or enable better decision making? How much of the Presto price tag accrues to the desire for perfect data, versus fare collection? We have slipped in a new value proposition whose need hasn't been established.

IT vendors commonly make this kind of 'added value' promise....."think of what you can do with all that data". Invariably, falling for that line of thinking results in a system with a huge price tag. That is the false premise. The more businesslike approach is for the buyer to carefully craft and defend its data needs statement to a rigorous internal challenge process - and then look for the cheapest method of delivering only that much data.

- Paul
 
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The potential of card-based system for improved customer satisfaction, automation (and the obvious reduction in labour) and universality should be the overriding rationale. The data argument is a nice side-effect, not a driver to moving to that system.

AoD
 
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What ever happened to the 10% Metrolinx wanted to charge Ottawa for Presto taps?

Both sides went quiet when Ottawa started threatening court action in early September.

Their contract expires on October 27th. Ottawa wanted a 3 year renewal as laid out in their original agreement; Metrolinx was willing to allow a 1 year renewal but only if they had basics laid out for beyond that. Metrolinx will no doubt allow a 1 year renewal during these negotiations anyway; so we may not hear anything significant until October 2017.
 
Interesting that Hull (see link), Québec doesn't use, or want to use, PRESTO. They use their own MULTI smart card.
 
What ever happened to the 10% Metrolinx wanted to charge Ottawa for Presto taps?
It went to court last I heard, they are prosecuting it. I'll delve on the latest later. It's a very good question, not least due to intervenor status of other clients, officially or otherwise.

Quick Google shows this is the latest reference, will delve later as I remember an action being started, it may have been a preliminary motion though. Pardon length quoted, no time to edit:

City of Ottawa threatens court action against province over Presto contract

By Jon Willing, Ottawa Sun First posted: Thursday, September 01, 2016 06:48
The City of Ottawa is threatening to confront the provincial government in court as the municipality tries to extend the current Presto agreement and fend off a massive cost increase to OC Transpo.

The city in February was shocked to learn Metrolinx, a provincial Crown agency, might not allow a three-year extension of the current Presto agreement beyond the Oct. 27, 2016 expiration of the current deal. Documents obtained by the Citizen through an access to information request reveal Metrolinx was only offering to extend the contract for another year, and only if they could reach an agreement in principle on a new contract by October.

City solicitor and clerk Rick O’Connor said Thursday the city took legal steps in March to preserve its right within the necessary timelines to challenge the province. The city has not yet sought a date for the divisional court to hear the court application, O’Connor said.

Metrolinx declined to comment on the city’s court application.

At the heart of the contract renewal talks is the province’s insistence that Presto becomes financially sustainable without the provincial government continuing to backstop the budget for the smart card system. However, the costs could be passed down to municipal taxpayers or transit riders through fares.

The Citizen previously reported that Metrolinx has wanted a 10-per-cent commission from Transpo on Presto taps in a new deal, a massive jump from the two-per-cent rate currently charged.

The new internal documents obtained by the Citizen include Metrolinx slide presentations. They suggest an agreement in principle with Presto-using municipalities outside Toronto would be sorted out by June 2016 and signed by October 2016, leaving another year to work out the finer details.

To this point, the City of Ottawa has not arrived at an agreement in principle with Metrolinx.

“Metrolinx and the transit agencies are on track to have key business terms agreed to before the current agreements expire in October 2016,” Metrolinx spokesperson Alex Burke said in an e-mail Thursday.

In the confidential presentations, Metrolinx stressed the marching orders given to the agency by the Ontario Transportation Ministry. Presto costs have increased and the revenue isn’t matching the expenses. The operating gap in funds could be as high as $78 million by 2025-2026 if the status quo continues, Metrolinx says in the slides.

Metrolinx points out other international transit agencies pay a much higher fee. The Oyster system in London, England carries a commission rate of just under 10 per cent, Metrolinx noted.

In the documents, Metrolinx tells municipal transit agencies it’s also trying to reduce Presto costs. The agency muses it could reduce call centre or help desk support, or try to convince more transit agencies to join the Presto club.

While Ottawa would prefer a Presto contract tailored for Transpo’s operations, Metrolinx has been considering Ottawa in the same group of other non-Toronto municipalities using Presto and whose agreements expire at the same time. Metrolinx hired a facilitator to guide the agency and municipalities through the contract renewal negotiations.

According to the documents, Metrolinx has wanted the city and those other agencies to pay a fixed “tap” charge plus a percentage cut of Presto revenue in the next deal. The so-called “hybrid” payment system was verified as the best option by a third-party accounting expert, who also recommended the agencies together assume the risk of providing a minimum amount of money for running Presto. Extra revenue collected by Metrolinx would be shared by the municipalities, and conversely, a shortage would require more money from them.

Metrolinx wouldn’t comment Thursday on the specifics of the negotiations.

The current Presto contract with Ottawa and the other non-Toronto cities allows the cities to renew the agreement under the same terms for three years with options for two additional three-year periods. When Metrolinx indicated verbally in February, and then formally in writing on March 1, that it’s only offering a one-year renewal, the City of Ottawa filed the court application.

In its court filing, the city argues that not extending the current terms would increase transit costs and reducing ridership, flying in the face of the province’s transportation goals.

At the same time, the province has the city against a wall. Under another legal agreement with the province, the city needs to use Presto if it wants to receive millions in gas tax funding.

The city initially paid about $34 million to implement the smart card system, which deployed on Transpo buses in 2013.

jwilling@postmedia.com
http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/09/01...-action-against-province-over-presto-contract
 
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Both sides went quiet when Ottawa started threatening court action in early September.

Their contract expires on October 27th. Ottawa wanted a 3 year renewal as laid out in their original agreement; Metrolinx was willing to allow a 1 year renewal but only if they had basics laid out for beyond that. Metrolinx will no doubt allow a 1 year renewal during these negotiations anyway; so we may not hear anything significant until October 2017.

Nothing like caving right before an election year.

AoD
 
It went to court last I heard, they are prosecuting it. I'll delve on the latest later. It's a very good question, not least due to intervenor status of other clients, officially or otherwise.

Quick Google shows this is the latest reference, will delve later as I remember an action being started, it may have been a preliminary motion though. Pardon length quoted, no time to edit:

City of Ottawa threatens court action against province over Presto contract

By Jon Willing, Ottawa Sun First posted: Thursday, September 01, 2016 06:48

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/09/01...-action-against-province-over-presto-contract

Wow. I'm shocked that Metrolinx is staying firm on the 10% fees. I had initially assumed that was just an starting point, with the expectation of being bargained down.

If Metrolinx stays firm on this, I hope Ottawa can pull out of the Presto program and switch to the same collection system as Gateneau. It's ridiculous that the Province forced Presto on Ottawa in the first place.

I recall that Metrolinx's monopoly on fare collection was one of the reasons that TTC didn't want to adopt Presto. If Metrolinx pulled the same nonsense in Toronto, I'd be eager to pull out of the Presto program, gas tax revenue be damned.
 

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