[Lone Primate]

Looks like Don Mills took it in the neck. Damn. That was the one I really wanted to see.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Since the Seattle LRT in the street median is up to 50 km/h the LRT suggested here is a botched job. And underscores the effectiveness of LRT done properly.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Since the Seattle LRT in the street median is up to 50 km/h the LRT suggested here is a botched job. And underscores the effectiveness of LRT done properly.

The Toronto LRV's are capable of reaching speeds of 70 km/h. The speeds for the Sheppard LRT mentioned include acceleration and braking, not cruising speeds. The cruising speeds would be the speed limit on the roads or more.

 

[nfitz]

Since the Seattle LRT in the street median is up to 50 km/h the LRT suggested here is a botched job. And underscores the effectiveness of LRT done properly.

Look at the station spacings in Seattle though. The average is over 1.5 km; and far more when take out the 4-5 close together stations downtown. Station spacing gets very wide away from downtown, with spacing up to 7 km apart! So it's no surprise the speed is up to 50 km/hr when there's a 7 km spacing. I'm surprised it's not much faster ... I've easily seen a CLRV doing 60 km/hr late at night, when it hits all the lights green (I'd swear closer to 70 km/hr!).

Have you ridden the Seattle LRT through downtown? I found it quite slow myself - seems slower than the buses used to be before they put in the LRT. The scheduled time for the 1.1 miles from Westlake and Stadium is 8 minutes - that's a whopping 8.3 miles/hour (13.2 km/hr). Average station spacing of 440 metres.

Sorry, tell me why you think our proposed LRT is a botched job compared to Seattle? Seattle needs to get those buses out of the tunnel.

The issue isn't LRT vs Subway, grade-separated vs crossing. By far the primary issue is the distance between stations.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And it's up to 80 km/h in exclusive right of ways. To not end up with too many stops they need to stop asking locals for input.

 

[nfitz]

And it's up to 80 km/h in exclusive right of ways. To not end up with too many stops they need to stop asking locals for input.

And yet the Seattle LRT still only runs at an average of 13 km/hr in the busiest section. That's slower than St. Clair!

 

[Paleo]

Montreal built a real subway along the Blue Line, which parallels the extremely busy Autoroute 40. Sheppard has way more development than the Blue Line and the 401 is muh busier than A40.

The St. Clair streetcar averages about 12km/h, and the Sheppard streetcar will be a bit faster but still much slower than a subway due to stops at minor intersections, delays at red lights and 5 minutes wasted transferring at Don Mills. On the other hand a Sheppard subway could do the trip between STC and Yonge in around 20 minutes which is faster than 401 in peak periods.

Who cares? No one is traveling between Yonge and STC during peak periods. The people on the 401 are not traveling between Yonge and STC during peak periods. Who cares?

 

[andrewpmk]

"The St. Clair streetcar averages about 12km/h, and the Sheppard streetcar will be a bit faster but still much slower than a subway..."

Hold on a minute. The latest TTC Service Summary gives speed ranges in St. Clair from 14.5 to 17.5. The estimates for Sheppard LRT are about 23. The Sheppard Subway runs at 29.5.

Sheppard LRT will be about 1.44 times faster ("a bit") than St. Clair, which is itself about 1.33 times as fast as you say.

Sheppard Subway is about 1.28 times faster than the ("much slower") LRT would be.

Perhaps a career checking facts for Rob Ford would be up your ROW.

Google Transit gives me 30 minutes for 6.5km from Yonge/St Clair to Gunns Loop = 13km/h. Close enough. The actual speed varies slightly depending on time of day. Do these speed estimates count the 5 minutes wasted due to looping around St. Clair West?

The existing Sheppard subway takes 9 minutes to go 5.5km = 36.6 km/h approximately. The existing Sheppard subway has wider average stop spacing than the existing subway which means it is faster then the rest of the subway system. Yonge/Sheppard to Scarborough Centre is about 14km which means that an extended subway would take about 23 minutes from Scarborough Centre to Yonge/Sheppard. In comparison, taking the Sheppard LRT will require an extra transfer at Markham/Sheppard and thus the trip from Yonge/Sheppard to Scarborough Centre will take around the same amount of time or be slightly slower than using the existing bus #190, somewhere around 45 minutes or so. Building a subway that cuts the time from STC to Yonge/Sheppard in half is a huge benefit over a LRT that provides zero time savings.

Yes, the Sheppard subway would require a transfer at Kennedy but I think this would affect far fewer people than a transfer at Don Mills, given the general low population east of McCowan and the presence of the large Agincourt CP yard. The Sheppard LRT will provide trivial time savings over the existing buses here, the Sheppard subway would provide some time savings for people going to Sheppard/Yonge. The Sheppard LRT will provide no or negative time savings for people coming from east of Morningside because they will end up with yet another transfer.

 

[js97]

Who cares? No one is traveling between Yonge and STC during peak periods. The people on the 401 are not traveling between Yonge and STC during peak periods. Who cares?

Really? That kind of ignorace drive scarbarians mad. There are many middle class families from VP to Brimley that work downtown. Their current option is to take the 85 Bus and connect at donmills. Why would you think one one travels there? Put a subway or a substantial LRT with at least 750m apart (and co-ordinated street lights) and you'll see traffic reduced substantially along the 401.

 

[datamouse]

I believe even the TTCs numbers show that ridership along Sheppard drops noticeably east of Midland. Of course ridership numbers are the big problem here aren't they?

I'm disappointed there not a better connection for eastbound travelers to STC. Just the appearance of having to travel to Progress to transfer without taking speed into account will turn some people away. Just because STC hasn't lived up to expectations on employment shouldn't mean we should give up on it. We can't keep having the downtown core being the only destination for jobs.

CodeRedTO is holding a meeting tonight at the Agincourt library. I'll be going to see what the the public perception is - if there's still the amount of misinformation about LRTs going about.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Sheppard LRT should then veer off Sheppard at Agincourt and head south to STC. Perhaps extend it further east on Ellesmere to terminate at Rouge Hill. Also travel at SRT speeds even when the SRT has close stop spacing as it does on the north end.

 

[nfitz]

Also travel at SRT speeds even when the SRT has close stop spacing as it does on the north end.

The only 2 pairs of stops that I recall being close together are Ellesmere/Midland and Scarborough Centre/McCowan. It seems to absolutely crawl between Scarborough Centre and McCowan, and even between Ellesmere and Midland it doesn't seem that fast, going around that curve, compared to the other SRT segments.

What do you mean then, by travel at SRT speeds when the SRT has close stop spacing? Do you mean go slowly?

 

[Paleo]

Really? That kind of ignorace drive scarbarians mad. There are many middle class families from VP to Brimley that work downtown. Their current option is to take the 85 Bus and connect at donmills. Why would you think one one travels there? Put a subway or a substantial LRT with at least 750m apart (and co-ordinated street lights) and you'll see traffic reduced substantially along the 401.

It's not ignorance. It's reality. There is not near enough "middle class families" there to justify borrowing $9 billion just to save them 20 minutes a day on a commute. Where is your fiscal conservative bent now?

It's laughable that you'd bring up the 85. If those numbers are to be the guide for spending I'll suggest to you that there are a dozen routes in the city that have bigger numbers. Where are their subways? Your ignorance of that should make all of those people mad am I right?

 

[andrewpmk]

1. The Sheppard subway extension will not cost anywhere near $9 billion dollars. It would be more like 4-5 billion for Downsview to STC.
2. The Sheppard subway is not just for people travelling between North York Centre and STC. It also connects to the Consumers Rd business park, Fairview Mall, Bayview Village, and Downsview Airport. The latter could potentially be redeveloped 10-20 years from now similar to Buttonville Airport, with Q400 production moved elsewhere, and be home to 10000s of jobs and residents. It would provide transfers to the Yonge and Spadina lines at Sheppard-Yonge and Allen, the Stouffville GO train and the CP line at Agincourt, the Richmond Hill line at Leslie, and the Scarborough RT and GO buses at STC. Many suburb to suburb trips (like Markham to North York, Vaughan to North York, Scarborough to York University) would be enabled by this line.
3. The Sheppard subway will provide an alternative to the overcrowded Finch East, Steeles East and York Mills buses.

 

[nfitz]

1. The Sheppard subway extension will not cost anywhere near $9 billion dollars. It would be more like 4-5 billion for Downsview to STC.
2. The Sheppard subway is not just for people travelling between North York Centre and STC. It also connects to the Consumers Rd business park, Fairview Mall, Bayview Village, and Downsview Airport. The latter could potentially be redeveloped 10-20 years from now similar to Buttonville Airport, with Q400 production moved elsewhere, and be home to 10000s of jobs and residents. It would provide transfers to the Yonge and Spadina lines at Sheppard-Yonge and Allen, the Stouffville GO train and the CP line at Agincourt, the Richmond Hill line at Leslie, and the Scarborough RT and GO buses at STC. Many suburb to suburb trips (like Markham to North York, Vaughan to North York, Scarborough to York University) would be enabled by this line.
3. The Sheppard subway will provide an alternative to the overcrowded Finch East, Steeles East and York Mills buses.

It doesn't really matter what it will do. The forecast ridership for the 2030s is still very low - even lower on the extensions, than on the existing portion. How can one justify such a gravy train?