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denfromoakvillemilton said:
You can't call it LRT. Just call it new subway cars for sheppard. Anything to avoid the transfer. Anything to avoid backlash.
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It will be LRT, because it will run partially in street-median. Actually, it will be pretty similar to some higher-end LRT implementations in other cities.

And, the per-km cost will be in the LRT range, much cheaper than subway.
 
ehlow said:
It's an interesting idea that I've heard before, but would it be less of a hassle to lower the platforms at the existing Sheppard line stations than introduce a new LRV type?

Also, can the Sheppard tunnels fit an LRV?
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My understanding is that the tunnels are large enough, it is the stations and platforms that are difficult to convert. The estimated cost of converting to low floor was $670 million. Assuming that conversion to high floor LRT is much cheaper, you can build a lot of surface high-floor stations for the rest of money.

Plus, I would think that conversion to high-floor can be done much faster than to low-floor, making it more palatable.

ehlow said:
It kind of sucks for the people who live along there to have to take buses for a few years in order to convert their subway into essentially a subway with narrower vehicles, but maybe if you package it along with the very long eastern extension it can be sold. It's still a really difficult sell though, similar to the SRT conversion.
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The whole idea is based on the hope that the subway closure can be brief, no more than 6-8 weeks before it reopens as high-floor LRT. Then it can be done in summer time when the demand is lower. If the required closure length is a few years, or even 6 months, then I think it is a non-starter; we should just accept the transfer.

ehlow said:
I would like to see it done in the long term since the Sheppard East LRT will go much further east than any subway probably will within 20 years. However, how do you justify the cost of the conversion given that we need to fund many more transit lines? (DRL, Eg & Finch Phase 2) I'm assuming here that even high floor LRT conversion will be expensive. Maybe the conversion can happen after the SE LRT is done? Or maybe the SE LRT can simply run at grade over the subway :) (joking.. or am I?)
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Perhaps it could be done in phases as you said. First, LRT opens with high-floor vehicles; after that, the subway gets converted. If the LRT is connected to the Danforth subway extension at McCowan or at STC, it won't become useless even during the temporary loss of the connection to Yonge subway.

As of running the LRT over subway (I know it is a joke), that would involve a nontrivial construction cost (5.5 km x 70 million per km at least), higher operating costs (2 lines), and the speed advantage of the tunnel section would be lost for LRT.
 
Rainforest said:
It will be LRT, because it will run partially in street-median. Actually, it will be pretty similar to some higher-end LRT implementations in other cities.

And, the per-km cost will be in the LRT range, much cheaper than subway.
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Right but it's all in the way you market it. People in Scarborough apparently do not like any form LRT.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Right but it's all in the way you market it. People in Scarborough apparently do not like any form LRT.
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Scarborough is getting so much transit in the future plans: Danforth/McCowan subway extension, Eglinton east LRT, Sheppard East LRT.

If they really do hate LRTs, maybe we should be focusing on other parts of the city first: Eglinton LRT West extension, Finch W LRT, DRL or another North-South line like Jane or Dufferin.
 
ehlow said:
Scarborough is getting so much transit in the future plans: Danforth/McCowan subway extension, Eglinton east LRT, Sheppard East LRT.

If they really do hate LRTs, maybe we should be focusing on other parts of the city first: Eglinton LRT West extension, Finch W LRT, DRL or another North-South line like Jane or Dufferin.
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I think it's unfair to think that way. Most people in Scarborough hate Eglinton and Sheppard east LRT, not all of them. Dismissing their skepticism over the projects however is warranted and it's wrong to think the way you do just because you don't agree with it.

The Neptis report did ripped appart Transit City as a whole for good and legitimate reasons. Even Christopher Hume who's an LRT champion had this to say:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/12/12/more_good_advice_on_transit_but_we_dont_listen_hume.html#

His rejection of the Eglinton Crosstown (“speed of a streetcar, at costs . . . not much less than a full subway”) and the Finch and Sheppard LRTs (“fashion accessories”) is painful, but appropriate.
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Without going back to the report in details, this was my post about what I retained from report:

1-Eglinton should be 100% grade separated using automated trains to save operation costs and boost the line ridership which was grossly underestimated by the TTC . I disagree revisiting the choice of vehicles since the tunnels are already being made to accommodate the Flexity Outlook specs

2-Finch West can easily be accommodated by BRT for a fraction of the cost

3a-Their recommendation on Sheppard won't work since the Scarborough subway is pretty much a done deal. Flip flopping on that one again with Federal money involved would be beyond a catastrophe for Toronto and cripple our credibility in demanding future Federal assistance in Transit projects.

3b-They clearly demonstrate that Sheppard LRT will be overkill for the avenue in its current form and that the wrong system was chosen by the TTC (purposely?). They chose not to compare at grade LRT to ALRT (light metro) for that line which would have been the most cost effective option and would have had an impact at reducing gridlock and getting motorists to switch to transit. They called SELRT slow and unlikely to attract that much ridership in its current form. Furthermore, they heavily criticized the methodology used by the TTC to arrive to the concluusion that SELRT was the best choice for the corridor. They even found the 2007 study where those who made the LRT study weren't even hiding that LRT was a tool to reshape the corridor instead of actually improving transit. Their recommandations is to upgrade Sheppard LRT to full grade separated ALRT and eliminate a few stops to increase the speed and convert the Sheppard subway as well...which won't likely.

3c-Due to the Scarborough subway, the SELRT ridership is expected to drop even further west of McCowan. Sinking 1 Billion dollars is pure waste and could be use to build a BRT an reallocate the balance to upgrade Eglinton by elevating the Eastern part
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Rainforest said:
The whole idea is based on the hope that the subway closure can be brief, no more than 6-8 weeks before it reopens as high-floor LRT. Then it can be done in summer time when the demand is lower. If the required closure length is a few years, or even 6 months, then I think it is a non-starter; we should just accept the transfer.
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It may be possible to do it with a shorter closure than that. Sheppard with 2-car subway trains at 2 to 3 minute frequencies matches today's capacity. There is also lots of platform behind temporary walls that can be converted with the station open.

Weekend outages for rebuilding the platform edges. Escalator/staircases are tricky as you still need 2 exits from the platform at all times, so half-conversions would be done.

Dual electrical feeds is straight forward. Signal system may need an upgrade (Yonge and Eglinton will run the same system, so Sheppard may need that upgrade too).

So, it might be technically possible to do it with a dozen weekend outages for rebuilding the platform edges. Politically, without a massive expansion plan and popular success of Eglinton, I don't think it would fly.
 
Solid Snake said:
I think it's unfair to think that way. Most people in Scarborough hate Eglinton and Sheppard east LRT, not all of them. Dismissing their skepticism over the projects however is warranted and it's wrong to think the way you do just because you don't agree with it.

The Neptis report did ripped appart Transit City as a whole for good and legitimate reasons. Even Christopher Hume who's an LRT champion had this to say:



Without going back to the report in details, this was my post about what I retained from report:
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All I'm saying is that we could look at prioritizing Etobicoke transit projects next, since Scarborough is already getting two LRTs and a subway.
I don't see anything wrong with suggesting that we can look at Etobicoke to improve transit next. Tons of transit users in the north-west.

I'm pretty sure we've all read the Neptis report and Hume's article about it.
 
Rainforest said:
It will be LRT, because it will run partially in street-median.
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Nope. Not LRT. It's street-safe subway cars. A little wider than Montreal's subway cars but with pantographs, mirrors, and something over the wheels :)
 
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