[kEiThZ]

Personally, I still believe a short 2 stop extension of the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to Victoria Park would do immense wonders for the line and the area!

A) The business node at Consumers will finally be served by rapid transit - rather than being just short of it...
B) The 404/DVP Barrier will no longer be an issue for all the traffic trying to access Don Mills station via the overburdened Sheppard overpass
C) Many Scarborough bus routes could access the Victoria Park North station that currently don't go into Don Mills
D) Lots and Lots of traffic on Sheppard Avenue will be reduced that currently tries to access Don Mills station
E) Victoria Park & Sheppard has immense redevelopment potential, the entire intersection node is ready for it!
F) It is only a single short bus ride away from the major employment node at Victoria Park & Steeles

There are probably many other benefits that I can't think of...but if they are going to send a TBM down Sheppard to get from Consumers to Don Mills, you might as well take it to Victoria Park...

And I still don't understand why they cannot do Cut N' Cover construction along the WIDE SUBURBAN Sheppard Avenue from Consumers onwards...

The most expensive part of this extension is crossing the 404. That's what is really holding it back. Extending the subway really makes no sense unless they are willing to go West (to Downsview) and East (till Agincourt eventually). Anything less and they'll really be lacking in ridership.

 

[mrxbombastic]

The province committed 2b the feds 0.66b and the city was just over 0.9b plus the .085b for cancellation costs.

For the sake of round numbers that $1b that is city money funded by the City property tax base. This money didn't from the feds or anyone else. This money could be freely allocated by the city as they please. The 0.66 b comes front the Building Canada fund of which toronto was roughly expecting 1b subway or not and so now has about 0.33b left on which they can "withdraw"

Putting all this together we get actually about $1.6b of city+fed capital dollars that could have been allocated to other projects.

I hope this demonstrates the massive misallocation of capital funds that we are embarking on because of the Scarborough subway.

 

[ehlow]

Personally, I still believe a short 2 stop extension of the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to Victoria Park would do immense wonders for the line and the area!

A) The business node at Consumers will finally be served by rapid transit - rather than being just short of it...
B) The 404/DVP Barrier will no longer be an issue for all the traffic trying to access Don Mills station via the overburdened Sheppard overpass
C) Many Scarborough bus routes could access the Victoria Park North station that currently don't go into Don Mills
D) Lots and Lots of traffic on Sheppard Avenue will be reduced that currently tries to access Don Mills station
E) Victoria Park & Sheppard has immense redevelopment potential, the entire intersection node is ready for it!
F) It is only a single short bus ride away from the major employment node at Victoria Park & Steeles

There are probably many other benefits that I can't think of...but if they are going to send a TBM down Sheppard to get from Consumers to Don Mills, you might as well take it to Victoria Park...

And I still don't understand why they cannot do Cut N' Cover construction along the WIDE SUBURBAN Sheppard Avenue from Consumers onwards...

Doug Ford responds: "Why does the Sheppard subway extension stop right on the Scarborough border?! We need more subway stops in Scarborough!! Stop treating Scarborough like 2nd class citizens, Scarborough should have as many subway stops as downtown."

 

[kEiThZ]

The province committed 2b the feds 0.66b and the city was just over 0.9b plus the .085b for cancellation costs.

For the sake of round numbers that $1b that is city money funded by the City property tax base. This money didn't from the feds or anyone else. This money could be freely allocated by the city as they please. The 0.66 b comes front the Building Canada fund of which toronto was roughly expecting 1b subway or not and so now has about 0.33b left on which they can "withdraw"

Putting all this together we get actually about $1.6b of city+fed capital dollars that could have been allocated to other projects.

I hope this demonstrates the massive misallocation of capital funds that we are embarking on because of the Scarborough subway.

1) I was under the impression cancellation was a lot lower than $0.85 billion. Tess Kalinowski of The Star reported the cost as $85 million in November. $85 million to $850 million is quite the leap. What's your source for this figure?
2) Spending from the Building Canada fund still requires federal approval and allocation. It's not automatic. And the feds can choose to spend it on whatever they wish. It's essentially a ribbon cutting fund for the party in power.
3) I find it absolutely remarkable that Toronto residents complain about paying for transit infrastructure when Ottawa, Hamilton, Mississuaga, York are paying one-third of the costs of their LRT projects.

 

[kEiThZ]

Doug Ford responds: "Why does the Sheppard subway extension stop right on the Scarborough border?! We need more subway stops in Scarborough!! Stop treating Scarborough like 2nd class citizens, Scarborough should have as many subway stops as downtown."

Doug Ford would not be the only one asking that. Most of northern Scarborough was ticked the last time the subway stopped at Don Mills. Also, you really won't change the ridership issue by just going two stops. To improve ridership the subway has to be completed as originally intended. But since that's not feasible, conversion should be on the table.

 

[mrxbombastic]

I feel as if you didn't read my post correctly and miscounted a decimal place. I said cancelation was .085b which is 85M. So there is no jump there. We both agree with Tess HOORAY!

And so it is a discretionary fund to an extent gicen thatvthere is a review process.But I take it from your post that you assume that the feds would not spent the BCF money on anything besides transit. This is just not true. Wouldn't they love to cut the ribbon on a reopened Gardiner?

Also I want to pay more taxes for transit. I just want to make sure our money doesn't get allocated foolishly. I'd love to pay a dedicated municipal tax for transit in Toronto.

 

[BurlOak]

1) I was under the impression cancellation was a lot lower than $0.85 billion. Tess Kalinowski of The Star reported the cost as $85 million in November. $85 million to $850 million is quite the leap. What's your source for this figure?

Zoom in a little bit. He said $0.085B which is $85M.

 

[accura407]

Doug Ford would not be the only one asking that. Most of northern Scarborough was ticked the last time the subway stopped at Don Mills. Also, you really won't change the ridership issue by just going two stops. To improve ridership the subway has to be completed as originally intended. But since that's not feasible, conversion should be on the table.

A short extension to Victoria Park + a western extension to Downsview could make the line much better. That should be the first phase

Once that is done, based on ridership and funds, the subway can slowly inch its way east using Cut n' Cover construction - No More TBM needed...

After it reaches Kennedy, build it to Scarborough Town Centre via elevated extension using the GO ROW & SRT ROW. No more tunneling east of Kennedy.

Also, build smaller stations for 4-car subways. We don't need full size 6-car stations... If the crosstown can go with 3-car LRT stations, Sheppard can live with 4-car.
I don't ever see a future of Sheppard subway needing 6-car trains

If you use Cut n' Cover + Smaller stations, I think the costs can come down quite a bit. I am very skeptical of the construction costs thrown around this city! They are just outrageous!

 

[innsertnamehere]

that cuts costs less than you would think, Eglinton isn't much cheaper than Spadina with its 90 meter stations, which are shorter than the would be 100 meter stations for 4 car trains. Cut and cover is sort of disastrous as well for the surface above it, you literally have to shut down the street for 4 or 5 years and that simply isn't really feasible, never mind the fact that obstacles such as the 404 and the ravine by Bathurst pose significant obstacles that force tunnel boring.

 

[ehlow]

that cuts costs less than you would think, Eglinton isn't much cheaper than Spadina with its 90 meter stations, which are shorter than the would be 100 meter stations for 4 car trains. Cut and cover is sort of disastrous as well for the surface above it, you literally have to shut down the street for 4 or 5 years and that simply isn't really feasible, never mind the fact that obstacles such as the 404 and the ravine by Bathurst pose significant obstacles that force tunnel boring.

Cut & cover hasn't been used since the 60's when Bloor opened right? (not including stations & extraction/launch shafts obviously)

I would guess the reason is labour costs and safety regulations.

 

[rbt]

2) Spending from the Building Canada fund still requires federal approval and allocation. It's not automatic. And the feds can choose to spend it on whatever they wish. It's essentially a ribbon cutting fund for the party in power.

While true, they would gladly allocate the funds toward the Gardiner rebuild (western portion) or any number of bridge/roadway/... projects. Most municipalities are using the funds for short-term road related projects. Allocating the funds to a very distant subway project is the unusual case.

 

[kEiThZ]

I feel as if you didn't read my post correctly and miscounted a decimal place. I said cancelation was .085b which is 85M. So there is no jump there. We both agree with Tess HOORAY!

Apologies. You're right.

And so it is a discretionary fund to an extent gicen thatvthere is a review process.But I take it from your post that you assume that the feds would not spent the BCF money on anything besides transit. This is just not true. Wouldn't they love to cut the ribbon on a reopened Gardiner?

You missed my point. They can choose and when and which projects they contribute to. There is no actual entitlement. Just an idea that a roughly proportional amount must be spent in Toronto. They can also decide to axe the fund entirely, to say balance the federal budget. Indeed, personally, I've never believed that the federal government should be involved in funding local infrastructure unless its strategically vital. Provinces and municipalities should have the testicular fortitude to swallow their medicine and raise the necessary funds.

Also I want to pay more taxes for transit. I just want to make sure our money doesn't get allocated foolishly. I'd love to pay a dedicated municipal tax for transit in Toronto.

I would love to pay more too if it actually went towards transit. That said, your definition of "foolish" is not universal. I don't think that building the BD extension is the worst use of money. And heck, if I had my way, all of Transit City money would have gone towards GO expansion. Heck, I'd personally like to see the TTC broken up. Shack up the subway network with GO, introduce fare by distance and leave the TTC running the feeder bus, streetcar and LRT services. There's a lot of different perspectives. Call someone else's foolish and labelling yours the absolute universal truth is a surefire way to ensure a lack of compromise and cooperation.

 

[mrxbombastic]

Some Canadian business sectors are heavily localized. The importance of those sectors or of the urban regions and their associated economies to the larger national economy is a national concern. The performance and viability of these economies inherently affects national finances and viability. Federal govt has a large interest in the performance of urban regions and should be doing everything it can including transit to ensure they perform well. That's not to say urban regions are more important than rural economies but rather that they can't be dismissed


I agree provinces and municipalities need to step up as well, as they seem to be starting to do in Ontario. Though the current environment is tepid at best for better or for worse.

None of us are certified economists and transit experts and politicians and accountants at the same time(if people are then they need to run fo office) so all are ideas are foolish in one lense or another but that doesn't mean one idea isn't better than the next. IMHO my view is better but we can agree to disagree there and on the topic of TTC break up because thats a massive can of worms to open in the wrong thread.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This. I supported subways. But I've come to realize that money isn't there. It's time for someone to stand up and say that since Sheppard Subway will never be extended that it's time convert it to LRT and plan to run from Port Union to Weston with a tunnel from Don Mills to Downsview.

I think if the taxes go up we might see money show up. The idea of Scarborough being quiet for a while after Sheppard goes to STC and BD goes to STC will look valuable.

 

[WislaHD]

There seems to be a lot of obstacles with extending Sheppard Subway eastwards, and I don't see what we are benefiting from by doing so.

By extending the line to Victoria Park, Scarborough residents lose the transfer at Don Mills to the future DRL. They will have to get on a bus to transfer onto the SELRT, transfer at VP to Sheppard, then transfer again at Don Mills to the DRL, only to possibly transfer YET AGAIN at Pape or Union/King depending on DRL route. 3-4 transfers makes transit usage undesirable and frankly, idiotic.

Extending to Victoria Park likely means no SELRT in the relatively near future. Which means no connection to STC, and therefore the option to take the B-D line is eliminated for most Northern Scarborough residents, AND more people will be funneled onto the Yonge line, hurting the rest of the city.

With the SELRT, development can still happen at Victoria Park and Sheppard, along with other places. With long gaps between stations on Sheppard, LRT will reach high speeds too. It'll be much faster than Eglinton Crosstown.

And lastly, an extended Sheppard East still suffers from the same gripping problems the current line has. It'll still be a subsidized stub that doesn't really go anywhere but Yonge and have relatively low ridership.

If you want Sheppard to be useful, you have to expand it west, not east. Connect it with Downsview station, give residents the option of cutting their commute short by getting on the Spadina line to their destination DT, Yorkdale or to York University. Build the SELRT alongside Sheppard West to funnel Scarborough residents onto the now useful Sheppard line (or alternatively to STC). Give the citizens of northern Toronto a viable means of traveling east-west.