[Rainforest]

But with all that said, some people still insist that less stops are better, just to make the LRT travel 4 km/h faster. That's about 27 minutes of travel time from Morningside to Don Mills, instead of 31 minutes with closer stop spacing. Ya, totally worth it. You saved 4 minutes, but forced many people to walk much longer than 4 minutes.

First of all, Morningside is a temporary terminus; the line is supposed to go to Meadowvale, or even to the Zoo.

Meadowvale to Don Mills is 15 km. At 27 kph, it can be covered in 33 min. At 23 kph, it is 39 min. The difference is 6 min (not 4) one way.

For someone commuting from the east end 2 times a day, the total difference will be 12 min. This is not negligible.

Then, there is a question of riders transferring from the N-S bus routes versus people living along Sheppard. For those coming from connecting routes, minor stops are useless; they will transfer at major intersections only.

 

[Rainforest]

I think that accusation is BS, in my opinion. Here's how the Finch LRT EA justified it (ditto for Sheppard):

LRT stops are selected based on a balance between good local access and high route speed. The greater the distance between stops, the higher the speed of travel. There were two general scenarios considered for stop separation for the Etobicoke-Finch West Transit City Corridor:

1) LRT stops every 800 metres like a ‘surface subway’, stopping only at major intersections, with infrequent parallel bus service (e.g. every 20 minutes) servicing bus stops in between. At LRT stops, customers transfer to centre LRT platform from side of road bus stop.

2) LRT stops every 400 metres – stopping at every major intersection, and once in between, with no infrequent parallel local bus service.

TTC developed a micro-simulation to examine the impacts of stop spacing of the Sheppard East LRT. A stop spacing of 800 metres resulted in a route speed of 26-27 km/h, while a stop spacing of 400 metres had a route speed of 22-23 km/h. The wider spacing did not result in as much of a speed advantage as expected; while the LRT stopped less often, the time for customers to board took twice as long per stop (same number of passengers collected at half the stops) and the LRT still had delays due to red lights at signalized intersections in between stops (although the model accounted for possible signal priority to reduce such delays). The wider spacing scenario was not selected because the full impact of the increased speed of the LRT applies only to those walking directly to LRT stops. Those boarding local buses at bus stops in between LRT stops have a shorter walk, but a longer waiting time for service and a transfer to the LRT after a very short bus ride.

That study was conducted for Sheppard; not for Finch. In the Finch project report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/finch_west_ea/chapter_2.pdf, on page 10 they explicitly state that the modeling is taken from the Sheppard LRT study.

On Sheppard East, major crossings occur every 800 m from Pharmacy all the way to Kennedy. Hence, they had a choice between 400 m or 800 m.

On Finch West, major crossings are 2 km apart. Thus, they have a choice between 500 m (3 extra stops between major crossings), 670 m (2 extra stops), or 1000 m (just one extra stop).

I found the proposed Finch West stop locations here: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/finch_west_ea/executive_summary.pdf, on page 6. They want to have 23 stop intervals between Yonge and Kipling (that's 13.5 km). The average stop spacing comes to 580 m.

I think that the 580 m average spacing is reasonable, whereas 400 m would be too close.

 

[Rainforest]

Back to Sheppard LRT: what is going to happen to the eastern section of the bus # 85 route, east of Meadowvale to Port Union Stn?

We can retain a short bus route there, and connect it to the LRT terminus. But, that will not make users of that bus very happy.

Another option is to send the bus from Port Union all the way to the McCowan & Sheppard subway terminus.

But in that case, we have parallel LRT and bus service on Sheppard east of McCowan. It is tempting to run the LRT east of McCowan with much wider stop spacing, since the local service needs are addressed by the bus.

 

[salsa]

First of all, Morningside is a temporary terminus; the line is supposed to go to Meadowvale, or even to the Zoo.

Meadowvale to Don Mills is 15 km. At 27 kph, it can be covered in 33 min. At 23 kph, it is 39 min. The difference is 6 min (not 4) one way.

In Toronto, "temporary" is a lifetime. But given how low the density is past Morningside, I would rather have the proposed terminus be either permanent, or extended to U of T where it would connect with the terminus of the Morningside LRT. However if Sheppard does get extended to Meadowvale eventually, I don't think stop spacing is an issue on that segment. It's 2.4 km long, but with only 3 planned stations the stop spacing averages out to 800 m. Therefore the average speed of 27 kph should be applied here, not 23 kph, and thus the difference along the entire line will still be 4 minutes.

For someone commuting from the east end 2 times a day, the total difference will be 12 min. This is not negligible.

More like 8 minutes both ways. And as I've said before, almost no one will be travelling along the entire length. The lions share of density starts west of Kennedy, much of which are not at a major intersection. And it's not until McCowan that you start getting a lot of connecting bus routes along the way towards Don Mills:

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Scarborough subway will siphon off a lot of people from the line at McCowan as well.

 

[superman]

The Scarborough subway will siphon off a lot of people from the line at McCowan as well.

Wonder what the ridership projections would be with the Line 2 subway now hitting Sheppard-McCowan and SmartTrack hitting Agincourt. I wonder if Sheppard still hits the LRT threshold or if BRT would be sufficient to fill the gap between the 3 rapid transit lines (Line 2, Line 4, SmartTrack).

 

[WislaHD]

I am a bit more optimistic, I think it makes SELRT more useful to customers.

Before it was a local route that necessitated a long trip connecting to a stub subway. Now you have direct access downtown at two points, Agincourt (with SmartTrack fare integration) and McCowen. The EA's for the SELRT didn't account for this.

A good point however is that while line ridership may actually go up, peak hour west-bound ridership will probably decrease, as SELRT is no longer servicing just the Sheppard line. Many commuters will be going the other direction, eastbound to the B-D line at McCowen or to a fare integrated SmartTrack line at Agincourt.

 

[Rainforest]

I am a bit more optimistic, I think it makes SELRT more useful to customers.

Before it was a local route that necessitated a long trip connecting to a stub subway. Now you have direct access downtown at two points, Agincourt (with SmartTrack fare integration) and McCowen. The EA's for the SELRT didn't account for this.

A good point however is that while line ridership may actually go up, peak hour west-bound ridership will probably decrease, as SELRT is no longer servicing just the Sheppard line. Many commuters will be going the other direction, eastbound to the B-D line at McCowen or to a fare integrated SmartTrack line at Agincourt.

Yes. Sheppard LRT is becoming more useful with these two new lines in place. The total ridership should go up and this is a good thing.

The peak point ridership may go down a bit, but I don't think it is a concern. It just means that people get to their destinations in a more efficient way.

 

[Rainforest]

In Toronto, "temporary" is a lifetime. But given how low the density is past Morningside, I would rather have the proposed terminus be either permanent, or extended to U of T where it would connect with the terminus of the Morningside LRT.

That would mean we are concerned about people living between major stops who might have to walk extra 400 m, but ignore people who live east of Morningside. Those people are already at the edge and their commutes are longer than anybody else's.

The density east of Morningside may be low, but the marginal cost of extending the LRT is low too. And, the Zoo is a destination worth serving. On summer weekends, the flow of riders to the Zoo will be significant, and go counter-flow to other travel patterns, hence the Zoo bound riders can be served without adding extra vehicles.

However if Sheppard does get extended to Meadowvale eventually, I don't think stop spacing is an issue on that segment. It's 2.4 km long, but with only 3 planned stations the stop spacing averages out to 800 m. Therefore the average speed of 27 kph should be applied here, not 23 kph, and thus the difference along the entire line will still be 4 minutes.

Fair enough.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Totally agreed. People seem to want to turn every line into an express train to Union Station.

Blame Giambrone and Miller for constantly referring to the SELRT as 'rapid transit'

 

[nfitz]

Here's the stop map that was once on the website when Rob Ford was elected.

I don't see the point in rehashing this discussion yet again.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Blame Giambrone and Miller for constantly referring to the SELRT as 'rapid transit'

Since when was the definition of rapid transit, "an express train to union staion"?

 

[nfitz]

Since when was the definition of rapid transit, "an express train to union staion"?

Blame Tory.

 

[M II A II R II K]

More stops could prompt cafes and boutique stores to pop up along it. So Sheppard East could end up looking like College Street or Front St. E.

 

[WislaHD]

More stops could prompt cafes and boutique stores to pop up along it. So Sheppard East could end up looking like College Street or Front St. E.

I'd like to believe that but it just feels like very different contexts.

College and Front street are in downtown, people from not just downtown or Toronto but the whole GTA travel there on a regular or semi-regular basis for work, school, business and pleasure, providing both demand and incentive to do business on these streets even before factoring in local transit. Sheppard East on the other hand is in the suburbia with little in the way of trip generators nearby, and the only people who will have destinations along Sheppard East will be the residents of Sheppard East (local usage).

Let's also keep in mind that even with the street-level LRT on Sheppard, Sheppard is still a very inhospitable typical suburban road for pedestrians and cyclists. Making it a "complete street" is a false dichotomy because the street would still be very wide and the whole build form is still not conductive to pedestrian uses. In fact, the LRT might make matters worse by eliminating some of the pedestrian crosswalks.

I am positive that LRTs in suburbs will generate some development and attract new retail, but LRTs are not going to convert a street like Sheppard East to St. Clair. Even in my native Midtown which has a lot more going for it than Sheppard East does, the retail rows on Bayview and Mt. Pleasant (which do have those cafes and boutique stores) often struggle and have high vacancy rates.