[Rainforest]

Of course. It takes around 1100 days to build a fully functioning LRT on grade. This should have been done, and I have no reason why we're waiting until 2023?

Mostly, because the provincial government wants to stretch the transit spending over a longer period, which makes their books look better.

So were saying it's okay because the public didn't know now? Come on. To be honest, this is on them. Why aren't they fighting for this LRT like you guys do on here? On Spacing, on steve's blog? You can clearly see the support the York subways to Wonderland and RH outside.

Start the SELRT. What are we waiting for?

You will never see massive public enthusiasm for LRT in Toronto. The majority will silently accept LRT wherever they are built. But very few will write petitions, contact their Councillors / MPPs etc, in order to get LRT built.

Torontonians are sort of spoiled with subways. Nothing less than a subway (or fast commuter rail) will make us excited, even though LRTs, BRTs, express buses are useful.

 

[Palma]

Mostly, because the provincial government wants to stretch the transit spending over a longer period, which makes their books look better.



You will never see massive public enthusiasm for LRT in Toronto. The majority will silently accept LRT wherever they are built. But very few will write petitions, contact their Councillors / MPPs etc, in order to get LRT built.

Torontonians are sort of spoiled with subways. Nothing less than a subway (or fast commuter rail) will make us excited, even though LRTs, BRTs, express buses are useful.

If you ask people that live near streetcars (I know they are not LRT), but would they prefer buses over streetcars? I doubt it. You are not going to get a subway on the streets that currently have streetcars so those people will not be clamoring for a subway. But if I had to choose between bus and LRT along the major street that I am close to (Keele St), I would choose LRT over bus because I am intelligent enough to know Keele will not be getting a subway anytime soon and I will certainly never believe what any councillors try to say (The Spadina subway at York does not count as it does not run north / south on keele St)

 

[BurlOak]

5) In the absence of DRL, both Eglinton LRT and Yonge subway would absolutely choke if the majority of Scarborough riders switched from BD subway to Eglinton LRT. And, those riders would switch if Eglinton and SLRT were connected.

I find this arguement odd. If all (10k) Scarborough riders are funnelled through Y-B station to make the transfer, then the system will handle it, but if this travel pattern is split between Y-B and Y-E, then it will overload the line. Also consider that Y-E station is being rebuilt anyways so it could be made to handle transfers just as good if not better than Y-B.

6) It is not evident that SLRT (connected to Eglinton or not) is compatible with SmartTrack, as the latter requires double-tracking the Uxbridge sub.

SmarTrack would not even had been proposed if a proper Scarborough transit solution was found. I actually think this portion would not have a problem with SmartTrack and SRT. The bigger problem is along the Lakeshore line where GO RER and SmartTrack need to share that limited space.

As well, your analysis of the different ‘camps’/’crowds’ doesn’t seem right. Our one opportunity for an elevated line (the SLRT) was ridiculed by the pro-subway crowd. The service quality was exactly the same as a subway, the line was longer, and more stations were offered - and they dissed it to high heaven, and chalked up its removal as a win against in-median.

The pro-subway crowd had nothing against the elevated SLRT. When the plan was a connected SRT/ECLRT, there was not one complaint.

I don't understand what you are saying here. We'd have saved a $billion by grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough? No ...

Let's see. It became obvious that the SRT with forced transfer at Kennedy was virtually dead. The options:

1) Spend $0.5B to elevate the Scarborough portion of Eglinton and spend the $2.0B on the SRT. Total cost = $2.5B
2) Spend nothing extra on the Scarborough portion of ECLRT and spend $3.5B on the B-D subway extension. Total cost - $3.5B

I prefer the option that involves elevating Eglinton and saves $1B.

 

[Rainforest]

I find this arguement odd. If all (10k) Scarborough riders are funnelled through Y-B station to make the transfer, then the system will handle it, but if this travel pattern is split between Y-B and Y-E, then it will overload the line. Also consider that Y-E station is being rebuilt anyways so it could be made to handle transfers just as good if not better than Y-B.

If only the station space was an issue, then yes, spreading the load between two stations would help.

But the trains capacity is an issue, too; probably a greater one. There is a substantial number of riders that take the Yonge line north of Bloor only, and then transfer to BD subway. Once they leave the Yonge trains, they make some room for other riders coming from BD subway. If you add more downtown-bound riders at Y-E, they have to share trains with non downtown-bound riders between Y-E and E-B.

Eglinton itself would be an issue, too. The projected peak demand for the combined Eglinton-SLRT line was 13,000 pphpd, which is close to the limit for the LRT system they are building, and leaves no room for future growth. If the intent was a combined Eglinton-SLRT line, it should have been built differently from the beginning (either LRT with longer platforms, or something other than LRT).

SmarTrack would not even had been proposed if a proper Scarborough transit solution was found. I actually think this portion would not have a problem with SmartTrack and SRT. The bigger problem is along the Lakeshore line where GO RER and SmartTrack need to share that limited space.

SmartTrack's catchment area in the east only partly matches that of SLRT, and in the west, they obviously have nothing in common. I think that SmartTrack would be proposed in any case; after all, that's how John Tory won the last elections.

 

[Rainforest]

If you ask people that live near streetcars (I know they are not LRT), but would they prefer buses over streetcars? I doubt it. You are not going to get a subway on the streets that currently have streetcars so those people will not be clamoring for a subway. But if I had to choose between bus and LRT along the major street that I am close to (Keele St), I would choose LRT over bus because I am intelligent enough to know Keele will not be getting a subway anytime soon and I will certainly never believe what any councillors try to say (The Spadina subway at York does not count as it does not run north / south on keele St)

There is no doubts that most of people will prefer LRT in such cases.

My point is that they will not be very active, and will not demand the said LRT to be built. If the city authorities build LRTs for them, people will happily use them.

It's like upgrading the water pipes or electrical transmission lines. As long as the existing infrastructure works, people will not bug their elected officials and demand an upgrade. The upgrade may be in the people's best interest, as the new infrastructure will be more reliable and may lose less water or power in the process of transmission. But the people assume that it is the city's job to handle the upgrade schedule, and do not interfere themselves.

 

[nfitz]

If you ask people that live near streetcars (I know they are not LRT), but would they prefer buses over streetcars? I doubt it.

Gosh no ...

• buses don't have the capacity at peak. On 504 the streetcars already run every 2 minutes or better at peak, and that includes a mix of the 74-person capacity CLRVs and the 108-person capacity ALRVs. So we replace them with 51-person capacity buses? At the same time, I counted over 95 people on a packed CLRV the other day that's almost 130% of capacity - I'm not seeing the same degree of crush loading on the 504 buses which would mean 65 on a bus - it's unusual to see people moving to the back of the buses to even achieve the rated 51 people. 18-metre artics aren't such a great option on downtown streets with a lot of parking.
• I was standing on a 504 run the other day. What struck me is how much rougher a ride it was on my knees, etc. All the lateral movement is very different than a streetcar, and much rougher.
• The noise of the occasional replacement bus past my house on 506 is most unpleasant, particularly in the middle of the night, as the diesel tries to climb the hill.

 

[Rainforest]

Anyway, both Finch and Sheppard LRT have very high chances of getting built.

John Tory wants them built and the cases closed, rather than letting the council flip the plans once again, and make himself responsible for putting other forms of transit on Finch and Sheppard. His hands are full with SmartTrack, Scarborough Subway, TYSSE cost overruns, and everyday TTC's operations; not to mention that transit file is not the only one that needs the mayor's attention.

The only risk for these lines is if the province drags its feet till 2018 in order to delay the spending. In that case, they may become an election issue in 2018 (and even then, they will become a real issue only if John Tory's support is weak, or he is not seeking re-election).

With Tory in charge, Mammoliti and Karygiannis can present their motions but they are not going anywhere. In fact, such outcome may be good enough for them, too: they will achieve some visibility with their motions, even if the council rejects them.

 

[GenerationW]

You mean people with influence like Norm Kelly, Ray Cho, MP Soo Wong, and Brad Duguid
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...east-lrt-depends-on-results-of-city-election/

And this was just at election time. For you to reduce it to two quacks is disingenuous at best. You know damn well people want, something, anything to be built on Sheppard East

Stop trying to spin this. You can't have one opinion on the DRL and another on this. Either the city failed on both of them or they didn't. Sheppard should have been up and running in 2013, since it was confirmed already unlike the DRL which you love to beat the city over the head with.

Sorry, but it IS just two quacks. As soon as Tory stood firm on not reopening debate on Sheppard, every non-quack on Council has fallen in line. Haven't heard much from any of your influential people since, which tells me the subway is dead.

Rob Ford and the province are primarily responsible for delaying the SELRT, not the city.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sorry, but it IS just two quacks. As soon as Tory stood firm on not reopening debate on Sheppard, every non-quack on Council has fallen in line. Haven't heard much from any of your influential people since, which tells me the subway is dead.

Rob Ford and the province are primarily responsible for delaying the SELRT, not the city.

Okay, so tell me why where waiting for a 2023 opening? Tory will have completed 2 terms and have been gone already in 2023. Stop selling half truths. If we want the SELRT, then build it already, it doesn't take 8 years to build a LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Mostly, because the provincial government wants to stretch the transit spending over a longer period, which makes their books look better.

The previous excuse was it's Rob's fault. Opening Eglinton in 2017 would look better. This is poor project management at best by Glen Murray.

You will never see massive public enthusiasm for LRT in Toronto. The majority will silently accept LRT wherever they are built. But very few will write petitions, contact their Councillors / MPPs etc, in order to get LRT built.

Torontonians are sort of spoiled with subways. Nothing less than a subway (or fast commuter rail) will make us excited, even though LRTs, BRTs, express buses are useful.

And this is the rub: the residents think it's second class. So we can fight all day knowing what we know on here, but until there is change in public consensus, this will be a debate.

If you ask people that live near streetcars (I know they are not LRT), but would they prefer buses over streetcars? I doubt it. You are not going to get a subway on the streets that currently have streetcars so those people will not be clamoring for a subway. But if I had to choose between bus and LRT along the major street that I am close to (Keele St), I would choose LRT over bus because I am intelligent enough to know Keele will not be getting a subway anytime soon and I will certainly never believe what any councillors try to say (The Spadina subway at York does not count as it does not run north / south on keele St)

Fair enough.

There is no doubts that most of people will prefer LRT in such cases.

My point is that they will not be very active, and will not demand the said LRT to be built. If the city authorities build LRTs for them, people will happily use them.

It's like upgrading the water pipes or electrical transmission lines. As long as the existing infrastructure works, people will not bug their elected officials and demand an upgrade. The upgrade may be in the people's best interest, as the new infrastructure will be more reliable and may lose less water or power in the process of transmission. But the people assume that it is the city's job to handle the upgrade schedule, and do not interfere themselves.

They should be more active. There is nothing wrong with LRT, especially to speed up suburban trips.

 

[GenerationW]

Okay, so tell me why where waiting for a 2023 opening? Tory will have completed 2 terms and have been gone already in 2023. Stop selling half truths. If we want the SELRT, then build it already, it doesn't take 8 years to build a LRT.

Learn to be more patient. You'll live longer.

 

[Electrify]

Toronto is not the first city in the world to deal with this issue. Other locations have managed to solve this problem with no construction at all (namely, Amsterdam and Rotterdam). But yet we have ignore their approach and instead choose to pretend that more complicated and more expensive alternatives are possible.

Was just gonna say. Since the SELRT is at an early stage, perhaps we can use this opportunity to design the line so that it can eventually connect to the subway, if not from day one. Use TTC gauge, ramp up platforms, and even create a crossover between third rail and overhead wires.

 

[nfitz]

Was just gonna say. Since the SELRT is at an early stage, perhaps we can use this opportunity to design the line so that it can eventually connect to the subway, if not from day one.

Early? They've been working on detailed design for years. Way too late.

 

[Markster]

Use TTC gauge, ramp up platforms, and even create a crossover between third rail and overhead wires.

Wait, so... are you suggesting making the at-grade section convertible to pantograph-equipped subway rolling stock?

 

[Electrify]

Wait, so... are you suggesting making the at-grade section convertible to pantograph-equipped subway rolling stock?

Yes, or even dual mode trains that switch between third rail or overhead wires. The line between subways and light rail, and even streetcars is so thin that trying to create a universal definition is a fool's journey. At the end of the day, rail is rail.