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p_xavier

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Cough cough, to all those with rose-colored glasses thinking Montréal is doing transit so well you need to read this.
Hence why the REM is great, the ARTM is worse than Metrolinx in planning. It's actually the most inept organization. I'm surprised the government hasn't scrapped it. It was a good idea, but politicians ruined it as usual.
 

nfitz

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True, but contrarily to the Mascouche line, it doesn't connect to the métro network before it reaches the city centre.
It would interesting to see some ridership numbers. Few would be getting off at Sauve to go downtown - though it might be attractive for those going to UQAM or UdM.
 

asher__jo

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Hence why the REM is great, the ARTM is worse than Metrolinx in planning. It's actually the most inept organization. I'm surprised the government hasn't scrapped it. It was a good idea, but politicians ruined it as usual.
You're right, the way REM was put forward is really the model we should be looking to emulate ;)
 

mktransit

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Even the well established Deux-Montagnes line still vastly has most people travelling downtown.

View attachment 379042
Right, those are similar numbers to the Mascouche line. Like I said most trips downtown are made by public transit. Did you interpret those numbers as meaning that most daily trips are trips to downtown?

Do pay attention to how stations in dense parts of the city have proportionally low ridership, how pendular exo's schedule is, what was the metropolitan fare integration at the time, and go have a look at origin-destination surveys.
 

nfitz

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Right, those are similar numbers to the Mascouche line. Like I said most trips downtown are made by public transit. Did you interpret those numbers as meaning that most daily trips are trips to downtown?

Do pay attention to how stations in dense parts of the city have proportionally low ridership, how pendular exo's schedule is, what was the metropolitan fare integration at the time, and go have a look at origin-destination surveys.
Fare integration has been in place in Montreal for decades! Many of the stations on that line are very urban, and not in downtown. And yet there's not travel between the pairs. Little is going to change that much because of the last mile issues.

We still need a good solution for last mile - some hope for automated shuttles - though given the early end of the disastrous Toronto pilots, I don't think we are going to be seeing that this decade.
 

mktransit

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Fare integration has been in place in Montreal for decades! Many of the stations on that line are very urban, and not in downtown. And yet there's not travel between the pairs. Little is going to change that much because of the last mile issues.

We still need a good solution for last mile - some hope for automated shuttles - though given the early end of the disastrous Toronto pilots, I don't think we are going to be seeing that this decade.
The last mile is not really an issue for trips to downtown Montreal, particularly in the city. Most urban stations should be attractive; I've mentioned why they're not, but you've read past it. On the issue of fares, pre-2021, RTM had 3 fare zones just in the city, and it came at a premium, while STM with a better service, was more affordable. Recent changes in the fare structure will be beneficial for exo's on-island ridership.
 

Xav

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Fare integration has been in place in Montreal for decades! Many of the stations on that line are very urban, and not in downtown. And yet there's not travel between the pairs. Little is going to change that much because of the last mile issues.

We still need a good solution for last mile - some hope for automated shuttles - though given the early end of the disastrous Toronto pilots, I don't think we are going to be seeing that this decade.
You don't see travel between urban train stations because their fares are not integrated with the STM monthly pass. You still need to buy a TRAM pass in order to be able to use all modes. This is slowly changing. Since July 2021 you can buy all mode tickets for the entire island (it's not yet possible for monthly passes).
 

Xav

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In french only, sorry. The ARTM published a report that severely criticizes the REM de l'Est for it's poor integration with existing network, low ridership gains, lack of communication between stakeholders and cannibalization of the existing user base. It praised the willingness of the government to invest so much into public transit (10 billion).

CDPQi has replied it will not go forward if ARTM maintains this stance after review. They are working on a plan with ARTM to adress all those issues. Ironically they accuse ARTM of not telling them in advance that they were working on this report (ARTM criticized CDPQi for not informing them of the entire REM de l'Est project). CDPQi has also said they reached out to the city of Montréal. The city is apparently not giving CDPQi its approval yet, which is another necessary thing for CDPQi to go ahead with the project.

The government is critical of the report, gives its full support to CDPQi and vows to make this project a reality. The minister in charge of Montreal (who is also Pointe-aux-Trembles MNA) attacked ARTM on several fronts, including not being transparent and using bad data.

Expect more changes to this project before we see shovels hit the ground. As a matter of personal opinion this is not necessarily a bad thing, since it could lead to better integration and better cooperation between stakeholders. As a taxpayer it's also reassuring to see that a 10 billion dollar project is being debated and discussed as opposed to shoved down our throat.
 

p_xavier

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It really looks like the ARTM folks want to get dissolved sooner than later with this report. They can't even produce a prioritised list of projects, or implement a new fare structure in a timely fashion.
 

nfitz

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The last mile is not really an issue for trips to downtown Montreal, particularly in the city.
I wasn't referring to the last mile downtown - but in other parts of Montreal - like Bois Franc.

You don't see travel between urban train stations because their fares are not integrated with the STM monthly pass. You still need to buy a TRAM pass in order to be able to use all modes. This is slowly changing. Since July 2021 you can buy all mode tickets for the entire island (it's not yet possible for monthly passes).
Integrated doesn't mean identical. Over 30 years ago when I used to commute on the Rigaud line to West Island, I simply bought a slightly more expensive pass that covered both buses, and all trains on the island.

A pass for just STM remains very cheap at about $90. One that includes downtown Exo stations is $14 dollars higher at $104. One that includes most of the island is $120. And one that includes the entire island is $147.

Compare to here where you have to buy two separate passes (well GO is of course monthly-capped these days rather than a pass), with the TTC pass being $156 and monthly GO for the shortest possible trip is another $132 to make a total of $288. Even a pass for GO/TTC connecting two interchange stations - for example Downsview Park to Danforth GO, the GO portion increases from $132 to $228.35 making both $384.something. A long trip, but remaining in the city, from Rouge Hill to Long Branch, that allows for both GO and TTC is $156+$306.10 to make $462.10

When (if?) our fares are finally integrated, it won't mean that $462.10 becomes $156!
 

Xav

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Integrated doesn't mean identical. Over 30 years ago when I used to commute on the Rigaud line to West Island, I simply bought a slightly more expensive pass that covered both buses, and all trains on the island.

A pass for just STM remains very cheap at about $90. One that includes downtown Exo stations is $14 dollars higher at $104. One that includes most of the island is $120. And one that includes the entire island is $147.

Compare to here where you have to buy two separate passes (well GO is of course monthly-capped these days rather than a pass), with the TTC pass being $156 and monthly GO for the shortest possible trip is another $132 to make a total of $288. Even a pass for GO/TTC connecting two interchange stations - for example Downsview Park to Danforth GO, the GO portion increases from $132 to $228.35 making both $384.something. A long trip, but remaining in the city, from Rouge Hill to Long Branch, that allows for both GO and TTC is $156+$306.10 to make $462.10

When (if?) our fares are finally integrated, it won't mean that $462.10 becomes $156!
I understand what you mean, I still think this is the main reason why people wouldn't take the train to go somewhere other than downtown. Stops aren't ideally located either, and frequency is just not reliable for most people. We'll need a lot more investment if we want to see something remotely close to GO.
 

mktransit

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It really looks like the ARTM folks want to get dissolved sooner than later with this report. They can't even produce a prioritised list of projects, or implement a new fare structure in a timely fashion.
I can't be mad at them because the points they've made about line B aren't wrong. But the CAQ is itching to destroy them and this report will likely lead to that.
 

mktransit

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I wasn't referring to the last mile downtown - but in other parts of Montreal - like Bois Franc.
I know. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And if the rail service is trash anyway, and not competitive with the bus and metro, the last mile isn't the issue for those urban stations.
 

mktransit

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Even if you consider that a premium is necessary for commuter rail, your fare structure should be coherent across modes and locations. 3 fare zone for one mode and 1 fare zone for all the others is not integrated.
 

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