[ARG1]

Or 1987, if you don't count that modest extension - which wasn't on the island!

The completely underground rubber-tired metros are perfect for Montreal weather conditions. When I used to live there, I don't remember ever having service stop because of weather issues.

But where it doesn't work is in the less dense suburban towns and boroughs - and particularly off the island. When Drapeau announced Line 3 in the early 1960s (essentially the Central-Deux Montagnes branch of the REM) it was steel-wheeled.

If there's ever another line that runs east-west through downtown Montreal, using the existing technology makes the most sense to me.

To be fair, you can always pull a Sapporo or Moscow and run the trains outside, but covered.

 

[Xav]

Given the cost and decades-long delays of extending the Blue line eastward, it seems that sadly, we missed the chance to build out the legacy metro, so it will continue to be a rather small network without REM adding a few more stations and a more connectivity in the core.

Were there ever proposals to significantly expand the metro though? Except for the White line in the 80s, the blue line extension pretty much completes the network as it was planned. We'll probably see an orange line extension to Bois-Francs (and maybe Laval) and extensions on the other lines (Yellow line in Longueuil, Green in LaSalle) at some point I guess. The Pink line as proposed by Valérie Plante was to be an automated steel wheel line like the REM. The difference was that it was to be underground for the most part and publicly owned.

Honestly are there still areas within the city that would need such heavy capacity rail? I don't think so. What Montréal really needs now is much better service in the suburbs, through BRTs and more bus service, and the development of a decent commuter rail network (or more REM if we want to take the Vancouver way).

 

[felix123]

Were there ever proposals to significantly expand the metro though? Except for the White line in the 80s, the blue line extension pretty much completes the network as it was planned. We'll probably see an orange line extension to Bois-Francs (and maybe Laval) and extensions on the other lines (Yellow line in Longueuil, Green in LaSalle) at some point I guess. The Pink line as proposed by Valérie Plante was to be an automated steel wheel line like the REM. The difference was that it was to be underground for the most part and publicly owned.

Honestly are there still areas within the city that would need such heavy capacity rail? I don't think so. What Montréal really needs now is much better service in the suburbs, through BRTs and more bus service, and the development of a decent commuter rail network (or more REM if we want to take the Vancouver way).

Yes, here is the STM's envisioned metro network for 1982, which now looks like a fantasy map.
Regardless, significant expansion of the network would have made life better in the city. Current areas that lack metro service but should absolutely have it by now are Montréal-Nord, swathes of Montréal-Est and much of NDG, including Côte Saint-Luc. Saint-Denis was always too far east for the Orange line, so the return of some type of higher-order transit would be warranted along S-L or Parc.

REM is suitable for much of the island. Buses are, in my opinion not. Our standards are just too low from living for too long with the slow, unreliable service they provide. Interesting to see if the Pie-IX BRT ends up being any good, though.

 

[Xav]

Yes, here is the STM's envisioned metro network for 1982, which now looks like a fantasy map.
Regardless, significant expansion of the network would have made life better in the city. Current areas that lack metro service but should absolutely have it by now are Montréal-Nord, swathes of Montréal-Est and much of NDG, including Côte Saint-Luc. Saint-Denis was always too far east for the Orange line, so the return of some type of higher-order transit would be warranted along S-L or Parc.

REM is suitable for much of the island. Buses are, in my opinion not. Our standards are just too low from living for too long with the slow, unreliable service they provide. Interesting to see if the Pie-IX BRT ends up being any good, though.

That map was a working document created in 1967. It was never intended as a realistic road map of what the network should look like, but rather an exercise to identify key corridors in the city for planning purposes.

There is one thing I did not mention though and you made me realize it. The only major expansion of the metro that didn't happen was the White line which would have run north along Pie-IX and then east in Montréal-Nord. As for the rest of the network, like I said we'll probably see a few extensions here and there, which would basically serve the areas you mention.

As for bus service, there are plans for BRTs on Parc, René-Lévesque and Henri-Bourassa, and that is actually an excellent way to increase reliability and speed. It's not as sexy as the REM, but it's much less expensive and much quicker to build.

 

[smallspy]

I agree the metro runs well though - even today. It's fast, has far fewer service issues compared to the TTC subway, and it negotiates switches without slowing down.

Other than for geometric concerns - which Montréal's Metro also has - where does the TTC subway slow down to negotiate switches?

Dan

 

[nfitz]

The only major expansion of the metro that didn't happen was the White line which would have run north along Pie-IX and then east in Montréal-Nord. As for the rest of the network, like I said we'll probably see a few extensions here and there, which would basically serve the areas you mention.

That's the most significant. But there's also the Blue Line extension to Lachine, which like the White Line, was once posted on Metro maps in the trains, with black dots. And don't forget at that time, the east extension of the Blue Line, went to Montreal-Nord rather than Anjou - similar to what was shown on the White Line (though my 40-year old recollections might be failing me).

Also more recently they were studying both the east and west extensions to the Yellow Line to try and relieve the other two lines - very similar to what's shown on that 1967 figure (north along St. Denis to Sherbrooke, to the west, and then south to Nun's Island) - even with consideration an in-fill station at Bonsecours (which is St. Denis south of St-Antoine). After the downtown idea dropped, they were studying the Longueil extension for a while. Didn't they announce it at least once?

And of course there's the two-station extension of the Orange Line to Bois-Franc - which isn't as major. I can't remember if that was shown on the early 1980s Metro Map or not.

I'd think that ultimately they are going to have to build a third east-west line. Whether or not it would be similar to the existing lines, or some kind of express line, at least downtown, would be interesting.

 

[felix123]

Other than for geometric concerns - which Montréal's Metro also has - where does the TTC subway slow down to negotiate switches?

Dan

Wilson, Eglinton and Woodbine come to mind.
Line 2 is reasonable, but line 1 just crawls most of the time, obviously not only due to trackage issues. At this point, I can count on a daily commute delay in either direction on line 1.
By comparison, all 4 lines on the metro consistently run quickly and are faster than lines 1 and 2 (I am not sure about TTC line 4 though).

 

[felix123]

I'd think that ultimately they are going to have to build a third east-west line. Whether or not it would be similar to the existing lines, or some kind of express line, at least downtown, would be interesting.

Do you think this would end up being the pink line proposal or the Rem de l'Est? I would hope slight more for the former, to keep east-west balance.

 

[Xav]

That's the most significant. But there's also the Blue Line extension to Lachine, which like the White Line, was once posted on Metro maps in the trains, with black dots. And don't forget at that time, the east extension of the Blue Line, went to Montreal-Nord rather than Anjou - similar to what was shown on the White Line (though my 40-year old recollections might be failing me).

Yes, the initial plan for the blue line had a 4 stop extension west of Snowdon towards Ville-Saint-Pierre (part of Lachine, it wasn't planned to go all the way to the actual Lachine). The extension east was originally supposed to go northeast to Montréal-Nord, but those plans changed with the idea of building the white line and they imagined a line running along Jean-Talon that would intersect at Pie-IX/Jean-talon. That station was designed to be exactly like Lionel-Groulx, with same platform transfers between the two lines.

Also more recently they were studying both the east and west extensions to the Yellow Line to try and relieve the other two lines - very similar to what's shown on that 1967 figure (north along St. Denis to Sherbrooke, to the west, and then south to Nun's Island) - even with consideration an in-fill station at Bonsecours (which is St. Denis south of St-Antoine). After the downtown idea dropped, they were studying the Longueil extension for a while. Didn't they announce it at least once?

Western extension of the Yellow line was a 3 stop extension from Berri-UQAM to McGill. The goal was to eliminate the transfer at Berri-UQAM and relieve the green line downtown segment. There has never been a serious study on bringing the yellow line further south than that (prior to the REM the AMT was studying a light rail link from Gare Centrale to Brossard).

The Bonsecours station is a myth. It was never planned or considered by anyone. The tunnel there is in one of the steepest slopes in the entire network, and building an in-fill station there would require building an entirely new tunnel alignment.

The eastern extension to Longueuil was announced a few times yes. In the early 2000's they studied the possibility of it running under Chemin de Chambly all the way to St-Hubert train station, and in 2009 the alignment was shifted east along Roland-Therrien blvd. It was always planned as a 5-6 station extension.

And of course there's the two-station extension of the Orange Line to Bois-Franc - which isn't as major. I can't remember if that was shown on the early 1980s Metro Map or not.

It was shown on maps, and it actually would have ran to Gouin boulevard (with stops at Poirier, Bois-Francs, Salaberry and Gouin).

Now that I laid it all out here, it is kinda significant, as all these represent 28 stations (a 38% increase from the current/planned 73 stop count). 12 of those are from the White line plan though, which is being replaced by the BRT (we'll see how good it is soon). I am also ignoring Line 3, which is basically being taken over by the REM).

As for future needs... Honestly if we were to build another east-west line, the best solution would be to build a rapid transit line along the CN right of way north of the city from Pointe-aux-Trembles to Côte-de-Liesse REM station. It would serve the northeastern part of the island and give easy access to downtown through the REM.

 

[smallspy]

Wilson, Eglinton and Woodbine come to mind.

Wilson: Full speed on the straight, slow on the diverging. The switches are #9 switches, with a maximum speed allowed of 20km/h. So, geometric concerns in one direction only.

Eglinton: limited speed in any direction due to curvature and the use of non-standard #6 switches. Again, geometric.

Woodbine: full speed on the straight, slow on the diverging. Same as Wilson.

Dan

 

[felix123]

Wilson: Full speed on the straight, slow on the diverging. The switches are #9 switches, with a maximum speed allowed of 20km/h. So, geometric concerns in one direction only.

Eglinton: limited speed in any direction due to curvature and the use of non-standard #6 switches. Again, geometric.

Woodbine: full speed on the straight, slow on the diverging. Same as Wilson.

Dan

Interesting, thanks. It's still quite a bit slower than the metro, regardless.
The good news however is that ATC is now completed on Line 1. Hopefully that helps.

 

[p_xavier]

With REM de l'Est canceled maybe the CDPQ can come and build a REM in Toronto...

Midtown REM, Steeles Ave to... past Kipling down the spur through that spur south. Imagine the redevelopment potential of that line!

Just have to figure out the freight problem...

Wynne governement refused at the time.

 

[p_xavier]

Finally ARTM will start working on Open Payment and mobile charging. Also a STM engineer told me that a small green line extension is planned and dedicated bus lanes are what could replace the REM de l'Est. Would not be surprised but it's one of the scenario studied. Plante killing the projet is the stupidest transit mistake made ever.

 

[smallspy]

Interesting, thanks. It's still quite a bit slower than the metro, regardless.
The good news however is that ATC is now completed on Line 1. Hopefully that helps.

"Full speed" is slower how, exactly?

For the record, I believe that the Metro's standard mainline switch is a #6, which would require slower speeds on the diverging than a #9.

ATC doesn't help with track geometry.

Dan

 

[Xav]

Finally ARTM will start working on Open Payment and mobile charging. Also a STM engineer told me that a small green line extension is planned and dedicated bus lanes are what could replace the REM de l'Est. Would not be surprised but it's one of the scenario studied. Plante killing the projet is the stupidest transit mistake made ever.

I don't know who your engineer friend is, but they just gave a contract to AECOM/Systra to update the study they had started with the Caisse for the new project. The goal is to come up with a solution that is better integrated with existing transport infrastructure (metro blue/green lines, Pie-IX BRT, Mascouche commuter rail line). The premier just acknowledged that that report will be delivered before the end of the fiscal year (March 31).

I don't think they've settled on anything just yet.