[Urban Sky]

Interesting article from 2019 that pretty much summarises all the concerns some folks had regarding REM's effect on the EXO network.

All the criticisms were voiced as soon as the REM proposal fell from the sky (on April 22, 2016) as the new gospel and god’s own words.

Article mentions something about an A40 station acting as the new station for VIA HFR. First time hearing about this.

REM will kill Mascouche commuter train, critics predict

"Without a direct connection to downtown, a lot of people are probably going to end up taking their car."

montrealgazette.com

Yes, it was studied, but there simply isn’t enough space at A40 station to duplicate all the facilities to act as an intercity rail terminus. Plus, the access to MMC (with switch of direction at Ahuntsic station and then right through Taschereau Yard) would have been extremely awkward…

 

[Bojaxs]

Yes, it was studied, but there simply isn’t enough space at A40 station to duplicate all the facilities to act as an intercity rail terminus. Plus, the access to MMC (with switch of direction at Ahuntsic station and then right through Taschereau Yard) would have been extremely awkward…

So then what does this mean for VIA rail's HFR going into Montreal? I'm assuming there's no longer any room for Via's trains at Gare Centrale.

 

[nfitz]

So then what does this mean for VIA rail's HFR going into Montreal? I'm assuming there's no longer any room for Via's trains at Gare Centrale.

There's plenty of room at Central Station. Most of the platforms are still solely used by VIA.

It's the line from Central Station, through the tunnel, to TMR (Canora) that's the issue.

 

[ARG1]

So then what does this mean for VIA rail's HFR going into Montreal? I'm assuming there's no longer any room for Via's trains at Gare Centrale.

As @nfitz pointed out, the problem isn't platform capacity at GC, but rather where the train goes from there. Realistically GC will only be used for terminating, so both as the terminus of the line when Phase 1 is finished (without QC), and for trains from Toronto that won't be going all the way to QC (I doubt that every train will run the full length, and that we'll see equal headways on both TOR <--> MTL and MTL <--> QBC). For trains that are passing through Montreal, they will likely just stop at a new station at Canora or something, and force people to transfer to the REM. Its by no means ideal but its also not the worst thing in the world (its not worse than the situation Ottawa has itself in).

 

[Urban Sky]

For trains that are passing through Montreal, they will likely just stop at a new station at Canora or something, and force people to transfer to the REM. Its by no means ideal but its also not the worst thing in the world (its not worse than the situation Ottawa has itself in).

I’m sorry to say this, but you have no firm grasp of what you are talking about. Having trains to Ottawa and Toronto depart from two different “downtown” stations is a horrible idea (and much worse than anything the people unlucky enough to travel to/from Ottawa must endure), as every single of these trains should stop at Gare Centrale under all circumstances. Where passengers travelling from Quebec City disembark for Montreal or connect for Ottawa/Toronto is an entirely secondary question. As any look at the gravity model will confirm, MTRL-OTTW/TRTO is the cake and QBEC-OTTW/TRTO are the crumbs and the latter should never be allowed to take the former hostage. If people in Quebec City don’t like transferring in Montreal, they may complain to the morons who surrendered the Mont-Royal tunnel to the CDPQi and are now standing empty-handed…

 

[Bojaxs]

For trains that are passing through Montreal, they will likely just stop at a new station at Canora or something, and force people to transfer to the REM. Its by no means ideal but its also not the worst thing in the world (its not worse than the situation Ottawa has itself in).

How is this NOT worst than Ottawa? I took VIA rail from Union Station to Tremblay on only one train.

You're saying I have to switch from one VIA rail train to another in the middle of Montreal to continue on from Union Station to QC? That's a big problem. I would rather fly than take the train if that's what's being suggested.

 

[ARG1]

How is this NOT worst than Ottawa? I took VIA rail from Union Station to Tremblay on only one train.

You're saying I have to switch from one VIA rail train to another in the middle of Montreal to continue on from Union Station to QC? That's a big problem. I would rather fly than take the train if that's what's being suggested.

If your final destination is Quebec City, why would you take a train terminating in Montreal?

I’m sorry to say this, but you have no firm grasp of what you are talking about. Having trains to Ottawa and Toronto depart from two different “downtown” stations is a horrible idea (and much worse than anything the people unlucky enough to travel to/from Ottawa must endure), as every single of these trains should stop at Gare Centrale under all circumstances. Where passengers travelling from Quebec City disembark for Montreal or connect for Ottawa/Toronto is an entirely secondary question. As any look at the gravity model will confirm, MTRL-OTTW/TRTO is the cake and QBEC-OTTW/TRTO are the crumbs and the latter should never be allowed to take the former hostage. If people in Quebec City don’t like transferring in Montreal, they may complain to the morons who surrendered the Mont-Royal tunnel to the CDPQi and are now standing empty-handed…

This is fair

 

[nfitz]

You're saying I have to switch from one VIA rail train to another in the middle of Montreal to continue on from Union Station to QC? That's a big problem. I would rather fly than take the train if that's what's being suggested.

How is changing trains in Montreal. Something that as far as I know, one has had to do from Toronto to Quebec City for the last 150 years, a show stopper. It would be easier than ever with the much higher frequencies.

I’m sorry to say this, but you have no firm grasp of what you are talking about. Having trains to Ottawa and Toronto depart from two different “downtown” stations is a horrible idea (and much worse than anything the people unlucky enough to travel to/from Ottawa must endure), as every single of these trains should stop at Gare Centrale under all circumstances.

Well they should all stop somewhere under all circumstances. And that's likely Central Station (which is still called Central Station in English).

But are there other options? Vendome? There's plenty of place over the underground hospital parking lot to build more platforms. And with come creativity, you could still run all the trains through to Windsor, with some new tunnelling under La Gauchetierre (or knock down the effing new Forum). Quebec City HFR trains can just loop around the mountain, but not have to do the grand tour of the Pointe. (kind of screws the Drummondville service - though I doubt that's going to have much service after a few years if they build HFR). Alternatively put all service at Canora - do an Ontario Line and knock down housing.

It's hard to see a very good economical solution that doesn't involve running the Quebec HFR trains around the mountain.

It will be interesting to see the 6 different alignments proposed in the recent RFP responses. Though who knows how many decades before they open that secret file.

 

[Dan416]

Hmm I always call it Gare Centrale versus Central Station. I wouldn't even be able to tell you why.

 

[Urban Sky]

Well they should all stop somewhere under all circumstances. And that's likely Central Station (which is still called Central Station in English).
View attachment 597016

Hmm I always call it Gare Centrale versus Central Station. I wouldn't even be able to tell you why.

It usually is out of respect for the local population and their language that I try to use local names and spellings wherever practical. Granted, French speaking people tend to be particularly ignorant of that rule (Londres, Columbie-Britanique, CTT [for Commission des Transports de Toronto] and Vladimir Poutine, anyone?), but to me as a germano- and anglophone living in Montréal, I generally use French names, as I treat English names here only as courtesy translations for tourists. I of course understand “Central Station”, but I would never use that name myself to describe VIA’s Montreal downtown station.

How is changing trains in Montreal. Something that as far as I know, one has had to do from Toronto to Quebec City for the last 150 years, a show stopper. It would be easier than ever with the much higher frequencies.

Agreed, switching trains is easy, but switching stations would be a show-stopper.

But are there other options? Vendome? There's plenty of place over the underground hospital parking lot to build more platforms.

Vendôme is too far from downtown. Might aswell choose the airport instead, which would be not that bad of a transfer point for QM and MOT trains and anyone travelling between Quebec City and downtown Montreal will likely prefer transferring in Laval to the orange Line.

And with come creativity, you could still run all the trains through to Windsor, with some new tunnelling under La Gauchetierre (or knock down the effing new Forum).

This is unfortunately impossible, given that there are too many bridges under the Westmount Subdivision to dive underground inbetween them. You would need to dive underground west of Rue Girouard, which makes for an extremely expensive tunne with far less benefits than building one from Gare Centrale to Parc Station…

Quebec City HFR trains can just loop around the mountain, but not have to do the grand tour of the Pointe. (kind of screws the Drummondville service - though I doubt that's going to have much service after a few years if they build HFR). Alternatively put all service at Canora - do an Ontario Line and knock down housing.

There unfortunately is not enough space at Canora to build an intercity station and intercity/commuter rail interchange with the REM.

It's hard to see a very good economical solution that doesn't involve running the Quebec HFR trains around the mountain.

Neither do I and I wouldn’t be surprised if nobody wants to fund the QM segment due to the unavailability of the Mont-Royal tunnel having distroyed most of the commercial and economic rational for that segment…

It will be interesting to see the 6 different alignments proposed in the recent RFP responses. Though who knows how many decades before they open that secret file.

I would assume that the proposals become public (at least as summaries) once the winning consortium is selected and the route is finalized.

 

[Steve X]

I find Gare Centrale is still a million times better than Union Station here in Toronto. You get the feeling your in a wide train station with everything in once place. Seating, food and shopping. Unlike Union where the grand hall is just for show with the VIA trains at Bay concourse. Then there is York concourse and the food/shopping level underneath. Taking another train would just mean going down another flight of stairs to another platform. Similar to how someone would transfer at Union.

Transferring to the Metro isn't as simple. You have to stumble your way though the maze kinda like Union Station trains to subway.

Maybe a local would find it different?

 

[nfitz]

Agreed, switching trains is easy, but switching stations would be a show-stopper.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that for the HFR service. Nor would I expect it. Though there's big cities where one does have to go from one train station to another to continue a trip. Paris, London. Not that I'd design a city that way. At the same time, I don't think either of those cities could handle having all the trains going into a single terminal. Mind you, we are about to have a continuous structure just about from Kings Cross, through St. Pancras, and into Euston. Might as well continue the job and extend it through Marylebone and Paddington! Tunnel from Waterloo and Victoria through Charing Cross into a connecting terminal in Regents Park.

Vendôme is too far from downtown. Might aswell choose the airport instead,

Yeah - 4 short metro stops to the main Lucien L'Allier Exo station. It's only 3.4 km - compare to the 4.8 km from Canora to Metro McGill.

But as I said, I don't see any great choices.

This is unfortunately impossible, given that there are too many bridges under the Westmount Subdivision to dive underground inbetween them. You would need to dive underground west of Rue Girouard, which makes for an extremely expensive tunnel with far less benefits than building one from Gare Centrale to Parc Station…

Decarie might be in the way too.

I figure you stay on the CP track until near de la Montagne. Though I suppose you'd just use Lucien L'Allier.

There unfortunately is not enough space at Canora to build an intercity station and intercity/commuter rail interchange with the REM.

Sure there is - just knock down 100 or so houses. Probably don't need that many. Far less than for the Ontario Line. Or even that bizarre project in Montreal where they down blocks and blocks of houses north of Notre Dame, between d'Iberville and Viau for (checks Streetview) an urban park.

Neither do I and I wouldn’t be surprised if nobody wants to fund the QM segment due to the unavailability of the Mont-Royal tunnel having distroyed most of the commercial and economic rational for that segment…

Unless you found a faster way around the mountain (must be a way to come through the Port and reactivate the old track through Pointe-aux-Trembles that they were going to use for Line 8, about 40 years ago.

Things have been downhill for decent rail connectivity in Montreal since they closed Dalhousie Station, and then Viger Station (which looks far better than either Windsor or Central) and Bonaventure Station. Had they kept them, a tunnel connecting Bonaventure/Windsor to Viger/Dalhousie would have solved everything - and been far cheaper and more useful than tunnelling through Mount Royal!

I would assume that the proposals become public (at least as summaries) once the winning consortium is selected and the route is finalized.

Have they unlocked VIA Fast yet, after 20 years?

Transferring to the Metro isn't as simple. You have to stumble your way though the maze kinda like Union Station trains to subway.

Union Station to the subway is pretty easy if you know the station. You just come out in the Bay concourse and go down the escalator, through the doors, and voila - the subway.

Even knowing the layout in Montreal won't help you get to the subway fast. Though if they ever (or have they?) open the direct connection from the REM platforms to Place Bonaventure, then that would be at least less maze-like - but still a bit of a walk. But will that connection work for everyone in the station, or those on the REM platform - are there fare-gates in the way? Gosh, on the STM (MTC! ) it shows they've opened it. Does that mean there's finally wheelchair access between Metro Bonaventure and Central Station?

In retrospect, they'd have been better off building Metro Bonaventure where Place Bonaventure is.

I'd guess the idea was to connect to both Central Station and Windsor Station. Ironically it's a much better connection to Windsor.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that for the HFR service. Nor would I expect it. Though there's big cities where one does have to go from one train station to another to continue a trip. Paris, London.

You will laugh, but a CDPQi director called the multiple-intercity-rail-terminal situation in Paris “state-of-the-art” in the negotiations with TC and VIA about track access through the Mont-Royal tunnel. Yep, the REM was planned by people stuck 150 years in the past, which might actually explain some things…

Not that I'd design a city that way. At the same time, I don't think either of those cities could handle having all the trains going into a single terminal. Mind you, we are about to have a continuous structure just about from Kings Cross, through St. Pancras, and into Euston. Might as well continue the job and extend it through Marylebone and Paddington! Tunnel from Waterloo and Victoria through Charing Cross into a connecting terminal in Regents Park.

Fixing London and Paris does not imply centralizing all rail termini (especially not for non-HSR), but to connect two rail termini with an underground tunnel (e.g., Gare de l’Est and Gare de Lyon) and then Rerouting all HSR routes through that tunnel. However, the cost of doing so would be monumental, but fiddling HS1 into St.Pancras (i.e., inbetween King’s Cross and Euston) was amongst the smartest decisions British rail planners have done in the last 50 years…

Yeah - 4 short metro stops to the main Lucien L'Allier Exo station. It's only 3.4 km - compare to the 4.8 km from Canora to Metro McGill.

The problem is not the distance to downtown, but how poorly integrated either location would be into the city’s rail transit networks. That’s why any comparisons with Shin-Osaka are absolutely ludicrous, as we’ve already discussed here…

But as I said, I don't see any great choices.

Once you treat the small (QBEC-bound) markets separately, you realize that nothing has changed for the marketa which matter (TOM).

Decarie might be in the way too.

Avenue Girouard is west of Autoroute 15, but I’m not sure whether the distance between Cavendish Avenue and Autoroute 15 is sufficient to dive underneath the latter.

I figure you stay on the CP track until near de la Montagne. Though I suppose you'd just use Lucien L'Allier.

Lucien L’Allier lacks the space for intercity passenger facilities and direct connection to the REM and Green Line.

Things have been downhill for decent rail connectivity in Montreal since they closed Dalhousie Station, and then Viger Station (which looks far better than either Windsor or Central) and Bonaventure Station. Had they kept them, a tunnel connecting Bonaventure/Windsor to Viger/Dalhousie would have solved everything - and been far cheaper and more useful than tunnelling through Mount Royal!

Everything was fine with Gare Centrale and Windsor Station. The two cardinal sins were closing Windsor Station (and building Centre Bell over its platform tracks) and sacrificing the Mont-Royal tunnel for the REM.

Have they unlocked VIA Fast yet, after 20 years?

You can download it here.

Union Station to the subway is pretty easy if you know the station. You just come out in the Bay concourse and go down the escalator, through the doors, and voila - the subway.

Even knowing the layout in Montreal won't help you get to the subway fast. Though if they ever (or have they?) open the direct connection from the REM platforms to Place Bonaventure, then that would be at least less maze-like - but still a bit of a walk. But will that connection work for everyone in the station, or those on the REM platform - are there fare-gates in the way? Gosh, on the STM (MTC! ) it shows they've opened it. Does that mean there's finally wheelchair access between Metro Bonaventure and Central Station?

There always was: through a tiny unmarked elevator into the Mariott hotel.

In retrospect, they'd have been better off building Metro Bonaventure where Place Bonaventure is.

Agreed.

I'd guess the idea was to connect to both Central Station and Windsor Station. Ironically it's a much better connection to Windsor.

View attachment 597053

I doubt there was any consideration of intercity rail and its stations when the Métro de Montréal was conceived and built…

 

[nfitz]

Avenue Girouard is west of Autoroute 15, but I’m not sure whether the distance between Cavendish Avenue and Autoroute 15 is sufficient to dive underneath the latter.

I'm well aware, as I used to live near Girouard and Upper Lachine Road.
I wasn't for a second suggesting anything outside existing rail corridors west of at least Guy.

Lucien L’Allier lacks the space for intercity passenger facilities and direct connection to the REM and Green Line.

Calling Central station a direct connection to the Green Line is pushing it. Also, Union Station has no direct connection to Line 2.

Everything was fine with Gare Centrale and Windsor Station. The two cardinal sins were closing Windsor Station (and building Centre Bell over its platform tracks) and sacrificing the Mont-Royal tunnel for the REM.

Bonaventure was much better situation, with a straight line connection to the CN track at St. Henri and the Turcot yards, and access to the bridge to the south shore. And a short walk to Windsor station. The tunnel could have curved into Bonaventure.

You can download it here.

Surely VIA 1989 has been released!

There always was: through a tiny unmarked elevator into the Mariott hotel.

The one that's been there since ... well at least the 1970s, I think it was from the 1960s. And I used it in the 1980s. Well yes, I guess it gets you to the street and nothing more (unless something has changed).

I doubt there was any consideration of intercity rail and its stations when the Métro de Montréal was conceived and built…

That tunnel right to in front of the entrance to Windsor station was certainly planned. Why there wasn't better access to Central I don't know. And up into Place Bonaventure, and then back around up and up and down into the passage, and up into Central was just bizarre - couldn't they have simply connected directly into the same spot? Back in the day, I simply jay-walked across the street to the same location. And still a trek.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

Fall REM photos are out:

North Shore
West Island
Centre and Airport
Downtown