[MartinMtl]

I really don't give a sow's teat for Montreal, having driven through that dreary place on my runs to and from Fredericton for years, and stayed overnight in a few downtown hotels there. For historic and European charm in Quebec, it's the old city of Quebec that a tourist wants to see, IMO.

Montreal a dreary place? My God, you really hate the city. Next time, you should wander a little outside your downtown hotels... Go explore Le Plateau with its victorian architecture evrywhere (Square Saint-louis and Laval street is a good start); try the Mile-End for a hip and multicultural hood, try Outremont (or Westmount, they are both gorgeous) for something more bourgeois and lush. Try the Picnik electronique on St-Helen island fora sunny sunday rave that is just dreamy. Go in the gay village for some nightlife action. And try the western part of Old Montreal, away from the touristy eastern part. Hell, give me a call. I'll show you why I think that dreary is not exactly the word I would use to describe this town.

There is absolutely no question that contemporary architecture in Toronto is superior to Montreal's. But it would be a gross exageration to say that Montreal is only historic architecture and then a desert for contemporary stuff. Interresting stuff is going on here (Quartier International, Grande Bibliothèque, McGill's school of music, UQAM's Pavillon biologique, numerous Hotel boutiques with stunning bars - Opus, W, Hotel Saint-Paul - Concordia's new downtown campus, many small but innovative condo projects, etc.). True, everytime I go to Toronto, I can't avoid to be a little envious right now. But things are looking up for Montreal. This is not a dead city living in its past. And while it's true that Montreal play the "french" card a lot, it's also playing the "design city" card a lot lately and it seems to work. Dorval airport, for exemple, greets the tourist with illuminated pictures everywhere of all the recent stuff in the city in term of design and architecture. As soon as you get off the plane, you feel you are in a city where stuff is happening. Toronto should do the same at Pearson. You sure have enough to show! In fact, you have more than we do.

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree, Martin. Beez, it seems like you've never been anywhere in the city outside the Rene Levesque/St. Catherine corridor.

I've been amazed by the transformation of Old Montreal. Even in the last couple years, the western half is slowly turning into more of a 24 hour community. Of course, the local NIMBYs are trying to squash the nightlife, but it's still quite promising. It's astonishing how sharp the divide is between the businessy Old Montreal west of St. Laurent and the completely touristy side on the east.

 

[ganjavih]

Like unimaginative, I've lived in Montreal for a while now after living in Toronto for years. And while certain things make living in Montreal a pain, I do think that it's the most interesting and tourist-friendly large city in the country. It's certainly a gem for urban explorers. Those who believe Montreal is dreary or that its historic charm is limited to the old city clearly do not know the city well. Summer in Montreal is just amazing with vibrancy, street life/patio life that's hard to match. It's also my favourite city for food. All in all I prefer living in Toronto because it's such an efficient liveable city... and it's interesting enough to keep me happy... but Montreal just has that 'je ne sais quoi' that makes for a nice time for visitors.

 

[unimaginative2]

Completely agree, ganjavih. The food in Montreal is simply incredible, especially at the middle and lower end. While Toronto is the equal (and probably beats) Montreal at the ultra-high expense account end (the $100+ tasting menus and the like), it's the smaller local restaurants where there's just no comparison. The number of chain restaurants in Montreal is tiny, and coupled with the higher percentage of people that seem to go out regularly, they can support far more good medium-end restaurants. There are just so many amazing places on Mont Royal, St. Laurent, St. Denis, Laurier, and others. Even in Old Montreal where I worked, there are just incredible little sandwich and lunch places that I wish we could replicate in Toronto. Titanic, Olive and Gourmando, Luna d'Oro, Beniamino and a whole bunch of others. You can get incredible sandwiches for less than the price of a foot-long Subway combo. That's not to say that I haven't had some incredible high-end meals in Montreal, and for a much lower price than Toronto to boot.

 

[TrickyRicky]

With regard to American impressions of Canada I don't really think we can look at the US as a whole. It is a vast and diverse land. There naturally is a regional interaction and parallel historical resonance between Montreal and New York so one would suppose New Yorkers to be most interested in Montreal as people from the US pacific north west concern themselves most with Vancouver. While Toronto is approximately the same distance away the ground transportation connections are much less direct and our settlement period parallels more with the Ohio valley and American Mid-west. One could argue we also share a parallel settlment history right now with the American south, cities like Atlanta, Houston and Miami.

I think it evident that Toronto is not as favourable a tourist destination in the conventional sense as Montreal or Vancouver. I say conventional as in a city for which one has a pre-conceived image and a short superficial visit is sufficient for the mind to bask in the affirmation of this pre-image. I'm sorry to say to the marketing boosters that this is not just a failure of tourism Toronto's marketing strategy. Toronto has right now sufficient character to surprise and satisfy many people but not universally so and hence we still have a long way to go. What I think is so frustrating for people like us on this forum is we see the tremendous potential Toronto has for improvement and we know that for all the advantages and even domination our city has nationally in certain areas we are in many other ways under-developed and under-cultivated.

 

[salvius]

I think it evident that Toronto is not as favourable a tourist destination in the conventional sense as Montreal or Vancouver. I say conventional as in a city for which one has a pre-conceived image and a short superficial visit is sufficient for the mind to bask in the affirmation of this pre-image.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Toronto unravels its charms rather slowly.

From my biased perspective, I do prefer the TO resto scene, though. It's a LOT more accommodating (more so than any place I've been to) to vegetarian cuisine.

 

[unimaginative2]

From my biased perspective, I do prefer the TO resto scene, though. It's a LOT more accommodating (more so than any place I've been to) to vegetarian cuisine.

I think that's true. Though I'm not a vegetarian, I had many vegetarian friends visit in Montreal and they seemed to find it a bit more difficult. It also goes without saying that Toronto is much better for Asian food, though Montreal does have a very strong Vietnamese food scene.

 

[Hydrogen]

Regardless of what city it is, the worst way to see it is from a highway.

 

[adma]

Playing up it's British past isn't something that would work because it's not really evident in the superficial touristy kind of way (or almost any way, for that matter). A tourist going to Quebec won't really stop and think that it isn't the same as France - to them it's French and it's exotic. Come to Toronto and everyone speaks English with a brand of North American accent. There's nothing really exotic about it.

What would be the truest "playing up Britishness" comparison point? Victoria BC?

For that matter, how many actual Victoria residents go to the Empress for afternoon tea?

 

[adma]

There is absolutely no question that contemporary architecture in Toronto is superior to Montreal's.

At least until the recent advent of starchitects and Clewes, there could've been a fair claim to the contrary. It isn't like you'd expect the pits in the land of Phyllis Lambert...

 

[Admiral Beez]

For that matter, how many actual Victoria residents go to the Empress for afternoon tea?

Who cares. It's the line-up of tourists fighting (nicely) for a spot in the tea room that matters for this topic of discussion. On the topic of high tea, my wife and I have had some very excellent tea at the Windsor Arms, King Edward and sometimes the Royal York.

Back in July I took my family to Westfield Pioneer Village and saw a huge group of British tourists. They were on an organized tour called, IIRC The Great British Canadian Tour, or something like that. These folks loved the British'ness of the place. Toronto could definitely appeal to such folks. I'm glad to see Fort York finally more accessible to the city.

 

[allabootmatt]

Dreary Montreal is certainly not--it was not dreary even in the darkest days of the economic slump, though it was certainly a lot quieter. No question, today it is a very vibrant urban centre with a huge amount of history and some wonderful neighborhoods.

I agree with TrickyRicky though--Montreal (and Vancouver) are probably seen as more appealing tourist destinations a lot of the time because they are well-packaged and relatively small. That's not to say that many tourists, as we've discussed, don't miss many of the best parts (although I think the Plateau is higher on the tourist itinerary than it used to be). Both have highly marketable images, whereas in TO we still aren't sure what we are, let alone how to package that identity. In a funny way even Vancouver seems like a much more mature place than Toronto sometimes, in the sense of not having its identity in flux. It helps not to have to take the mantle of being the leading metropolis of a big country, which adds a lot of pressure.

I've spent a lot of time in both cities; my parents, their siblings, and the vast majority of my extended family are ex-Montrealers, most of whom are now in Toronto with a smattering elsewhere and a few holdouts still up there.

For me, Toronto is the more interesting, exciting place by a significant degree, and for a reason that is the polar opposite of Ganjavih's impression. I find that it's Toronto, in fact, that has the 'je-ne-sais-quoi' of being a city that is buzzing with its incredible potential and excitement about the future, a place that does really feel like it's taking off down a wild, exciting road. As great as Montreal is, it definitely lacks that energy, which is not a bad thing, just different. It's a much more stable place, if you like. For me, therefore the advantage goes to Toronto.

But what about for the tourist? I've heard Montreal compared to Vienna, which sounds to me about right; long past its prime as a centre of events, but highly civilized, the heir to an outsized cultural patrimony, and today a centre of certain niche things like design. That makes a very appealing package, though exciting it's not.

So I suppose it depends on what our hypothetical tourist is looking for, since both cities have different strengths (albeit with a lot in common, too: I would challenge our hypothetical tourist to distinguish between Queen West and St Laurent, language aside). No question, though, that we're not playing fair since Montreal's marketing is leagues better.

 

[Tewder]

What would be the truest "playing up Britishness" comparison point? Victoria BC?

From Americans I know, it is more subtle than that.

As an example, it's the urban pattern of Toronto's neighbourhoods, complete with Victorian buildings, corner pubs and 'high street'-style shopping that tends to feel more Notting Hill-like than what you'd find in the satelite communities of Atlanta, for example.

 

[Urban Shocker]

I question the notion that Montreal is "a centre of certain niche things like design", compared to Toronto. Figures published by Toronto's Design Industry Advisory Committee indicate that we're more or less in a dead heat with Boston and Chicago for second place after New York as a centre for professional design employment - with Montreal considerably back, behind L.A.

 

[Hydrogen]

I'm trying to figure out how activity in the Design Industry (or any industry outside of tourism) came to be confused with tourism promotion.