[kEiThZ]

I have not been to Europe, but I have been to many large cities in the USA.

Hardly a country whose public transport infrastructure we should emulate.

Where is the CBD?

Business Precinct | City of Ottawa

ottawa.ca

What would you say would be the top 5 largest nodes in Ottawa?

Hurdsman, Bayview and Rideau. Blair and Tunney's temporarily. I think it's a virtue of Ottawa's system that their downtown ridership is divided over multiple stations. Instead of a large primary station like Union in Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

Hardly a country whose public transport infrastructure we should emulate.

So, think of the largest cities in the world. If they have a commuter rail, do they go downtown? Last I checked, most do.

Business Precinct | City of Ottawa

ottawa.ca

So, literally a 1 minute walk to the edge of downtown?

Hurdsman, Bayview and Rideau. Blair and Tunney's temporarily. I think it's a virtue of Ottawa's system that their downtown ridership is divided over multiple stations. Instead of a large primary station like Union in Toronto.

So, the downtown is not one of the top 5? Can you cite your sources?

 

[kEiThZ]

You have a weird definition of outside of the downtown core. Sure Euston isn't located at Bank station, but it's current location is CBD enough and there are a ton of jobs and important destinations around it, same with other orbital rail termini like Gare du Nord and Moscow's many railway termini. None of them are even remotely comparable to Tremblay which is quite literally in the middle of nowhere.

They are bigger cities so a direct analogy is a bit tougher. But they most certainly aren't right in the core or even all that near their financial districts. Nobody is walking from the City or Canary Wharf to Euston station.

And that's just Europe. Newer systems, like several in China, will routinely build termini outside the downtown core, or even outside the city. The cost of building a subway for intercity rail is usually not worthwhile.

Is the area around Tremblay great? No. But I never said it was. I said the connectivity is great. And is what is important to an intercity rail station.

Don't oversell it. It's passable, but I wouldn't call it "good".

Having just come back from the UK and lugging my bag up and down stairs in ancient Tube stations, I would have killed for a connection like what is there in Ottawa. You literally have a metro station beside the VIA station. You can get from your VIA train to LRT platform in under 5 mins. Short of them tunneling right to the LRT platform what more could they have done?

It also doesn't change the fact that Tremblay is quite the detour if you're coming from the west, to the point where I'd wager that if you had a station at Billing's Bridge, it'd be way faster to change there and getting on the Bank bus instead of going all the way to Tremblay (granted, a similar argument might be made for a theoretical Union Station connection, but it would at the very least be far more competitive).

On the LRT it's 3 stops. On the highway, it's the next exit after Nicholas. "Quite the detour" is a bit of a stretch. The gains from relocating to old Union would be insignificant. And come at ridiculous cost. Also, I still fail to see why VIA would pass up the through running they have at Tremblay.

 

[kEiThZ]

So, think of the largest cities in the world. If they have a commuter rail, do they go downtown? Last I checked, most do.

If you're building a commuter rail hub, why do you need VIA to move from Tremblay?

And I never once suggested commuter systems don't build stations in the core. I said they don't always build intercity rail stations right downtown.

So, the downtown is not one of the top 5?

What exactly is a transportation node in your view? I listed Rideau as a node for a reason. I consider that their node in the core.

So, literally a 1 minute walk to the edge of downtown?

That's a long 1 min walk....Google says 14 min walk from Bank and Laurier to the front of the whole train station, for example.

 

[micheal_can]

If you're building a commuter rail hub, why do you need VIA to move from Tremblay?

And I never once suggested commuter systems don't build stations in the core. I said they don't always build intercity rail stations right downtown.

Not a need, but more of a feature.
I don't see Via not serving Tremblay, but more adding 1 more stop in the city of Ottawa.

What exactly is a transportation node in your view? I listed Rideau as a node for a reason. I consider that their node in the core.

.
My mistake. I thought we were talking about places people would go, not existing stations.

That's a long 1 min walk....Google says 14 min walk from Bank and Laurier to the front of the whole train station, for example.

How far to Elgin and Wellington?

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't see Via not serving Tremblay, but more adding 1 more stop in the city of Ottawa.

The detour would be substantial and would kill any prospect of efficient and quick through service like HFR. Heck, VIA already runs way too slow through Ottawa. Especially on the approach to Tremblay. Adding an extra station that off the main track could easily add 10 mins to the trip. It takes 9 mins from Tremblay to Rideau on the O-Train.

How far to Elgin and Wellington?

2 min. But unless you work at the Langevin block or are guarding the War Memorial this is a rather useless point of reference. There's a reason Parliament station is so busy. And whether it's an intercity station or commuter hub I don't imagine most people would walk to most of the CBD from the old Train Station. Especially given Ottawa's winters.

 

[ARG1]

On the LRT it's 3 stops. On the highway, it's the next exit after Nicholas. "Quite the detour" is a bit of a stretch. The gains from relocating to old Union would be insignificant. And come at ridiculous cost. Also, I still fail to see why VIA would pass up the through running they have at Tremblay.

Consider the travel time difference between the existing transitway service and Bank Street, where transfers at Hurdman are far more direct, and it's 1 less stop on the O-Train. Having the bank bus save 10 minutes over going all the way to Tremblay is quite reasonable. Also stop mentioning the Highway as a selling point, it's not. Nobody riding the train to Tremblay has any use for it. It's only a selling point if you're considering people driving to Tremblay to take VIA someplace else. On that note, stop bringing up VIA, they're not relevant to this conversation at all.

Not a need, but more of a feature.
I don't see Via not serving Tremblay, but more adding 1 more stop in the city of Ottawa.

Uh, no, that would be beyond silly.

They are bigger cities so a direct analogy is a bit tougher. But they most certainly aren't right in the core or even all that near their financial districts. Nobody is walking from the City or Canary Wharf to Euston station.

But there are many people who work next to Euston, and there are plenty of people who work walking distance from Union.

Is the area around Tremblay great? No. But I never said it was. I said the connectivity is great. And is what is important to an intercity rail station.

Intercity rail, not regional rail. That's why I brought up that it's in the perfect location for an airport, if you want a station where you can go to Toronto or Montreal, perfect location. If you're commuting to Ottawa from theoretical suburbs, it's atrocious. Again, refer to my analogy of GO serving North Toronto station instead of Union. That would be absolutely dreadful.

Having just come back from the UK and lugging my bag up and down stairs in ancient Tube stations, I would have killed for a connection like what is there in Ottawa. You literally have a metro station beside the VIA station. You can get from your VIA train to LRT platform in under 5 mins. Short of them tunneling right to the LRT platform what more could they have done?

As I said it's okay. Could they have done better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it's a great transfer, 5 mins is a long time when it comes to commuting, especially since your station is an awkward location that forces the user to double back, and there's a faster option available to transfer onto a bus.

 

[micheal_can]

The detour would be substantial and would kill any prospect of efficient and quick through service like HFR. Heck, VIA already runs way too slow through Ottawa. Especially on the approach to Tremblay. Adding an extra station that off the main track could easily add 10 mins to the trip. It takes 9 mins from Tremblay to Rideau on the O-Train.

For through trains, I don't see them going all the way downtown, but for trains that terminate in Ottawa, this could be where they terminate.

2 min. But unless you work at the Langevin block or are guarding the War Memorial this is a rather useless point of reference. There's a reason Parliament station is so busy. And whether it's an intercity station or commuter hub I don't imagine most people would walk to most of the CBD from the old Train Station. Especially given Ottawa's winters.

Connect Union with Rideau and you can get to any of those other stations when the weather or your want or desire prevents you for wanting to walk.

 

[kEiThZ]

Consider the travel time difference between the existing transitway service and Bank Street, where transfers at Hurdman are far more direct, and it's 1 less stop on the O-Train. Having the bank bus save 10 minutes over going all the way to Tremblay is quite reasonable. Also stop mentioning the Highway as a selling point, it's not. Nobody riding the train to Tremblay has any use for it. It's only a selling point if you're considering people driving to Tremblay to take VIA someplace else. On that note, stop bringing up VIA, they're not relevant to this conversation at all.

So spend a billion bucks to save 20k commuters a day 10 mins? That doesn't sound like good value for money at all. Especially after VIA refuses to move....

This is literally proposing a whole second rail system on top of the O-Train. To service some rather marginal ridership. That same money would yield more, being spent so many other ways in Ottawa. Building the system on the cheap with existing infrastructure has some merit. Spending billions to add 20-30k riders per day? Not so much.

Also, highways aren't totally useless for transit. See all of GO's highway bus lanes. Or the temporary ones OC Transpo has during LRT construction.

Again, refer to my analogy of GO serving North Toronto station instead of Union.

So you wouldn't support a GO Midtown line through Summerhill?

Probably not, but that doesn't mean it's a great transfer, 5 mins is a long time when it comes to commuting

Sure. The transfer wasn't designed sign commuters in mind.

 

[ARG1]

So spend a billion bucks to save 20k commuters a day 10 mins? That doesn't sound like good value for money at all. Especially after VIA refuses to move....

This is literally proposing a whole second rail system on top of the O-Train. To service some rather marginal ridership. That same money would yield more, being spent so many other ways in Ottawa. Building the system on the cheap with existing infrastructure has some merit. Spending billions to add 20-30k riders per day? Not so much.

I think I'm a broken record when I say that this is for 30-40 years from now when it won't just be "20-30k riders per day". Spending a billion for 20k riders is obviously not worth it.

 

[micheal_can]

I think I'm a broken record when I say that this is for 30-40 years from now when it won't just be "20-30k riders per day"

He does not want to envision a day when it reaches crush load.

 

[DirectionNorth]

If the suburbs outside the Greenbelt area are served by O-Train, where will the ridership for a commuter rail system come from?

 

[kalis0490]

@DirectionNorth. otrain line 2 is technically a "commuter rail" by any books. Just a really good one which has LRT frequencies. They even used european regional trains. When I refer to a commuter rail, I refer to a dmu that comes every 10 minutes- not Milton line style.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think I'm a broken record when I say that this is for 30-40 years from now when it won't just be "20-30k riders per day". Spending a billion for 20k riders is obviously not worth it.

Spending a billion dollars for 30k riders per day is also questionable. Mostly though you have to ask what a billion dollars would do for Ottawa. This is a city with terrible feeder bus service that still runs most routes 15 mins at peak and 20+ mins off peak. A billion dollars would literally double the bus fleet. I would argue that would generate a lot more ridership than this proposal.

Also, who has any idea what travel patterns will be in 30-40 years as the feds move to more remote working and move out of the downtown core? The entirety of Ottawa's rapid transit network design is based on peak ridership, largely based on serving lots of public servants heading to the core. Now the largest employer in town says their employees don't have to come to the office everyday and it's moving many of their workplaces out of the core.

Anybody who says they know what peak loads will be in 30-40 years in specific corridors, is full of it. 30 years ago, people barely had dial up internet. Now people can work from home in their PJs. I can't even imagine what working is going to be like in another 30 years. But this at least means that transit can finally be designed to provide city wide mobility, as opposed to a hyper focus on downtown bound commuters.

 

[ARG1]

Spending a billion dollars for 30k riders per day is also questionable. Mostly though you have to ask what a billion dollars would do for Ottawa. This is a city with terrible feeder bus service that still runs most routes 15 mins at peak and 20+ mins off peak. A billion dollars would literally double the bus fleet. I would argue that would generate a lot more ridership than this proposal.

Also, who has any idea what travel patterns will be in 30-40 years as the feds move to more remote working and move out of the downtown core? The entirety of Ottawa's rapid transit network design is based on peak ridership, largely based on serving lots of public servants heading to the core. Now the largest employer in town says their employees don't have to come to the office everyday and it's moving many of their workplaces out of the core.

Anybody who says they know what peak loads will be in 30-40 years in specific corridors, is full of it. 30 years ago, people barely had dial up internet. Now people can work from home in their PJs. I can't even imagine what working is going to be like in another 30 years. But this at least means that transit can finally be designed to provide city wide mobility, as opposed to a hyper focus on downtown bound commuters.

I don't know why you're taking this conversation seriously and literally, all that is being argued is that repurposing Union Station sometime in the future as the region grows isn't an unreasonable idea, and could be looked into as a potential future project. If the population doesn't grow, then we don't build it. It's that simple.