[Hipster Duck]

TK,

I find that very hard to believe. Sure, the avenues are speedways (at least on the west side), but the crosstown streets are considerably slower and you have to integrate them into your trip. Also, surface parking in New York is difficult, condo towers aren't ordered to build massive parking garages for their residents like Toronto, they don't have convenient service entranceways for garbage trucks and delivery vehicles, cul de sac entranceways for condo towers, and they don't have cheap, subsidized municipal parking a la Green P seemingly everywhere like in Toronto. Although Toronto is an urban city through and through, you could drive from place to place downtown like a suburbanite with not much trouble. You, of all people, would probably be the first to readily admit this to us in a transit vs. road debate. The only cities that made more concessions to the automobile in their downtown core were a priori non-urban automobile cities: Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Miami, etc.

 

[TKTKTK]

TK,

I find that very hard to believe. Sure, the avenues are speedways (at least on the west side), but the crosstown streets are considerably slower and you have to integrate them into your trip. Also, surface parking in New York is difficult and they don't have cheap, subsidized municipal parking a la Green P seemingly everywhere like in Toronto. Although Toronto is an urban city through and through, you could drive from place to place downtown like a suburbanite with not much trouble. You, of all people, would probably be the first to readily admit this to us in a transit vs. road debate.

Parking in Toronto is a snap compared to NYC. Though I've often wondered if it's just because I don't know the ins and outs - my friend Tiffany seems to have no trouble.

Depending on where you're going, there are parts of the city that are actually pretty difficult to get to by car. I live in the east end and dread having to go to BWV or far west Eglington. The Allen is about as far west as I'll happily go But NYC has those hard to reach outer areas too.

I'm lucky because I live near the Gardiner (heh), and work is in the southern part of the city. I can just clip along the only real east/west corridors through the city (ironically stacked on top of each other).

This morning though, I had an appointment at First Canadian. I accidentally took Richmond at about 10am. Huge mistake. I'd forgotten why I'd stopped taking Richmond except at night, lesson relearned. I can only imagine what will happen if they decide to kill the DVP at Richmond/Adelaide.

 

[Glen]

Dichotomy you trot out the difficulty to drive around downtown argument seemingly every week like the McCain campaign trotting out William Ayers, but, I ask you, name another thoroughly urban city of 5 million anywhere in the developed world with a downtown that is as easy to drive around as Toronto.

Chicago

 

[Admiral Beez]

Sadly, Ottawa's experience with Sparks street has been mixed. Sparks is dead past working hours.... That result has largely sucked the wind out of any desire to create more pedestrian streets in Ottawa.

I lived in Ottawa for four years in the early to mid 1990s and can say that Sparks isn't just dead past working hours. It's also dead once the temperature drops in the autumn. A pedesterian-only road works well in places that have nice weather, but when it's -20'C people want to drive to the store, dash in, buy what they want and dash back to their cars.

 

[Dichotomy]

Dichotomy you trot out the difficulty to drive around downtown argument seemingly every week like the McCain campaign trotting out William Ayers, but, I ask you, name another thoroughly urban city of 5 million anywhere in the developed world with a downtown that is as easy to drive around as Toronto.

Chicago. I was there in July. I had no problem getting out of our hotel. We drove all over the city those 4 days. Other than the construction north of O'Hara, it was fine.
The entire reason I've become active on this site and other political arenas is because our traffic is the worst in North America - or do you not think it odd that a city of ONLY 5 million has the busiest freeway in North America (the 401)?

And for the record, I find downtown Sao Paulo easier to drive around, although I haven't yet gotten used to the maze of stacked freeways/roads yet.
We are sinking to 3rd world status with respect to our ground transportaiton. Whether we build more highways or build more subways, something must be done because transportation more than anything else is affecting the quality of life in this city.

 

[Dichotomy]

Parking in Toronto is a snap compared to NYC. Though I've often wondered if it's just because I don't know the ins and outs - my friend Tiffany seems to have no trouble.

Depending on where you're going, there are parts of the city that are actually pretty difficult to get to by car. I live in the east end and dread having to go to BWV or far west Eglington. The Allen is about as far west as I'll happily go But NYC has those hard to reach outer areas too.

I'm lucky because I live near the Gardiner (heh), and work is in the southern part of the city. I can just clip along the only real east/west corridors through the city (ironically stacked on top of each other).

This morning though, I had an appointment at First Canadian. I accidentally took Richmond at about 10am. Huge mistake. I'd forgotten why I'd stopped taking Richmond except at night, lesson relearned. I can only imagine what will happen if they decide to kill the DVP at Richmond/Adelaide.

The trouble with Richmond is that in many places either the left or right lane is closed off due to a building going up. Lately, southbound Jarvis is effected because cement mixers lurk on the corner of Richmond/Jarvis waiting their turn at a new development just west of Jarvis.

This is one madness the city has to stop. If developers want to build 50 story towers, fine - but they have to manage it within the footprint of their own construction. There simply is not the extra traffic capacity to close a lane for 1 or 2 years while a building goes up.

 

[androiduk]

^ You beat me to it Dichotomy, I was typing while you were posting.

One other thing to consider here is Toronto's seemingly endless growth spurt. Go anywhere near Yonge/Bloor for example and it's a nightmare and it's going to be like that for the next 3 years! This is happening all over the city because of condos or road building/maintenance, etc. One thing I've noticed here is the police don't actively engage in traffic control. In a lot of cities you see police officers directing traffic and keeping intersections clear during rush hour but not here. Drivers blocking intersections cause horrendous tie-ups. The city needs to get more proactive on this subject, sometimes small changes can make a big difference.

 

[Archivist]

Dichotomy: our traffic is the worst in North America. Can you back this up with something, please? Tell us what your source is. Given that INRIX, a traffic information company in the states, whose job is to analyze traffic congestion across nearly 50,000 miles of primary roadways, found Chicago to be the third worst in the states (after LA and NY), given that they found the worst bottleneck in the city to have an average speed of 11 mph for 62 hours of the week, where are your comparable figures?

Also, you state, If developers want to build 50 story towers, fine - but they have to manage it within the footprint of their own construction. There simply is not the extra traffic capacity to close a lane for 1 or 2 years while a building goes up - I guess you are unaware that Trump Tower in Chicago required lane closures on LaSalle street, but since, as you point out, their traffic is "fine", I guess it's OK here, too, right?

 

[ShonTron]

Shenzhen. City of 8 million built for the car.

Seriously, I really like the John Street idea. It would be a perfect car-free street as there are few, if any, car-centric businesses, there's little street parking anyway, it would help out Friday and Saturday night, and could help "mature" the street to be more of a restaurant/nightlife district mixing the haute culture with mass entertainment.

I would not be so eager to re-pedestrianize Yonge, I would prefer it to be a two lane traffic street, with bike lanes and some on-street parking, and left turn lanes at places like Richmond/Adelaide and Gerrard for circulation. Sidewalks could be widened, and the street closed for special events easier.

College between Clinton and Crawford would be interesting - just allow streetcars and bikes and perhaps deliveries. Turn the Dominion parking lot into a public square with underground parking. It would be amazing. Auto traffic has the options of Harbord or Dundas.

 

[ShonTron]

One thing I've noticed here is the police don't actively engage in traffic control. In a lot of cities you see police officers directing traffic and keeping intersections clear during rush hour but not here. Drivers blocking intersections cause horrendous tie-ups. The city needs to get more proactive on this subject, sometimes small changes can make a big difference.

That, I agree, but using police for traffic control is like using the military to shovel snow. I've seen traffic wardens (the equivalent of provincial offense officers in terms of authority) in many US cities enforce traffic flow during rush hours, and keep pedestrians from crossing against the lights. One problem we do have is requiring paid-duty cops to stand around at construction sites and do nothing. What a waste of taxes.

I've driven in Chicago (LSD, Lower Wacker, Michigan Avenue, Dan Ryan, Kennedy). It certainly is no joke, even though there are more highways in their central business district. I'd never say it's easy driving, not one bit.

 

[Glen]

Dichotomy: our traffic is the worst in North America. Can you back this up with something, please? Tell us what your source is. Given that INRIX, a traffic information company in the states, whose job is to analyze traffic congestion across nearly 50,000 miles of primary roadways, found Chicago to be the third worst in the states (after LA and NY), given that they found the worst bottleneck in the city to have an average speed of 11 mph for 62 hours of the week, where are your comparable figures?

Chicago suffers from the same type of traffic problems that Toronto does. There are bottle necks getting on to routes leaving the city core. Nearly every city with a shoreline has similar ones as there are less directions in which to disperse. Within the core itself though, if you are not trying to leave ,the rush hour traffic is very manageable. I have gone from the museum campus to the north end of downtown and back to the river in twenty minutes during rush hour.

That being said, Toronto's inter core traffic during rush hours is also manageable, unless you must contend with the encounters of the bottle necks to get on the Gardiner. Traffic into and out of the core is down by 11% from its peak. The 416 has nothing to compared to the traffic along #7.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Dichotomy you trot out the difficulty to drive around downtown argument seemingly every week like the McCain campaign trotting out William Ayers, but, I ask you, name another thoroughly urban city of 5 million anywhere in the developed world with a downtown that is as easy to drive around as Toronto.

I live in Cabbagetown and drive all over downtown, and have always found the core easy to drive in. Sure rush hour might be busy, but outside of that, driving in downtown Toronto is a snap.

Overall, driving in the GTA isn't that bad for me. I leave Markham Rd. and Highway 7 at 5:00pm, and am in my driveway in Cabbagetown usually before 5:40pm. Going to work is even faster, I leave my house at 7:55am, head up the DVP, take the 401, up Markham Rd to Hwy 7 and I'm at my desk by 8:25am.

 

[Dichotomy]

I live in Cabbagetown and drive all over downtown, and have always found the core easy to drive in. Sure rush hour might be busy, but outside of that, driving in downtown Toronto is a snap.

Overall, driving in the GTA isn't that bad for me. I leave Markham Rd. and Highway 7 at 5:00pm, and am in my driveway in Cabbagetown usually before 5:40pm. Going to work is even faster, I leave my house at 7:55am, head up the DVP, take the 401, up Markham Rd to Hwy 7 and I'm at my desk by 8:25am.

Fortunately for you, you are driving 'against' traffic. I, too, drove from downtown to Warden/Eglinton for 11 years and I averaged 20 minutes, but I felt very sorry for all those poor soles heading 'downtown' in the morning. Although the odd thing about the DVP, is I often find it stopped mid-afternoon on a Sunday. That shouldn't be - those certainly are not commuters.
Now that I head west on the Gardiner every morning, the traffic westbound is as bad as inbound. Every morning this week it crawls passed Kingsway, while I noticed inbound is clear from about Jameson in.

 

[Dichotomy]

Dichotomy: our traffic is the worst in North America. Can you back this up with something, please? Tell us what your source is. Given that INRIX, a traffic information company in the states, whose job is to analyze traffic congestion across nearly 50,000 miles of primary roadways, found Chicago to be the third worst in the states (after LA and NY), given that they found the worst bottleneck in the city to have an average speed of 11 mph for 62 hours of the week, where are your comparable figures?

Also, you state, If developers want to build 50 story towers, fine - but they have to manage it within the footprint of their own construction. There simply is not the extra traffic capacity to close a lane for 1 or 2 years while a building goes up - I guess you are unaware that Trump Tower in Chicago required lane closures on LaSalle street, but since, as you point out, their traffic is "fine", I guess it's OK here, too, right?

A quick google search reveals a dozen sources that the 401 is the busiest highway in North America. Hmm, why is that? HELLO - because there is no other east-west thoroughfare in the entire city! The 401 ends up handling both cross-town and local traffic, which it wasn't designed to do.

Chicago has a plethora of 6 lane, 8 lane and 4 lane one way streets in their core. Hell, there's a stacked 6 lane roadway under the Aeon Tower! If only Toronto had the foresight to do that when the TD/Commerce Court complexes were being built!

The point isn't whether Toronto has MORE traffic, it's that it has fewer wide streets. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that NONE of the center core roads are more than 4 lanes? We're left with parts of Jarvis and University. What kind of bone-headed planning is that? Hell, not just the core - look at Eglinton or 0'Connor or Kingston Rd - supposedly more 'suburban' streets.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Okay, but how do you suggest to deal with the limited east-west expressway capability within the city limits? Outside of the city you've got the 407, but what do you suggest? I don't think there's any land left to create for east-west expressways in the city.