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Dichotomy, typically for you, you have responded to an argument I didn't make. I made no comparison between the amount of traffic on the 401 vs. any artery in Toronto, but merely pointed out that your claim that "our traffic is the worst in North America" is unsubstantiated by anything you have said. Again, I will ask, where are your figures? What are you using to make a comparison? Commute times? Bottlenecks? Average speed?
 
Okay, but how do you suggest to deal with the limited east-west expressway capability within the city limits? Outside of the city you've got the 407, but what do you suggest? I don't think there's any land left to create for east-west expressways in the city.

Tunnel?
 

Tunnel is virtually synonymous with "toll." Adding on that, if the highways in this city were tolled (either privately or otherwise), there would be plenty of money to run tunnels from Malvern to Long Branch. Until then, no politician will be willing to buy up billions of dollars in housing and commercial property and demolish it to build an expressway. Nobody.
 
This is from Andrew Coyne's article on infrastructure spending in Ontario.
March 25, 2006
For whom the road tolls:


If there was a theme to Thursday’s Ontario budget -- other than sheer incontinence -- it was infrastructure: what roads and bridges are called between elections. And if there was a theme to the province’s infrastructure spending, it was utter confusion. The Finance minister, Dwight Duncan, struggled mightily to invest it all with the necessary rhetorical grandeur. “Infrastructure,†he began, “is the schools where our children learn, the hospitals where we are treated, the public transit systems we ride, the roads we drive on, the plants that clean our drinking water and the power stations that keep our lights on.†The question defined, the answer was obvious: more spending. “Each generation,†he went on, “is called upon to build and renew our vital infrastructure.†To everything there is a season. A time to tax, and a time to spend. Or in other words: If it moves, this government will subsidize it. Or even it if doesn’t. The important thing is to spend, or be seen to.

There was money for energy conservation and money for energy consumption; money for roads and money for public transit. You read that right: The government of Ontario will pay you to turn the lights off and pay you to leave them on; pay you to use the car and pay you to leave the car at home. Indeed, since the same government boasts of its willingness to subsidize the auto industry, we can further sum up the McGuinty approach to transportation: More cars should be built, but fewer people should be driving them.
But why pick on Ontario? All governments, at every level, do the same thing, for every mode of transportation. The poor traveller is beset on all sides by conflicting messages. Take the bus! No, take the train! Please, I’m begging you: take the plane! We’re paying top dollar to anyone who will just drive their car! And all these subsidies are paid for with the taxes on his own labour. The government, he may conclude, wants him to quit working and take up travelling.

Here’s another suggestion: Instead of paying all these offsetting, overlapping subsidies to lure travellers down this road or that railway, why don’t we just stop subsidizing any of them? The one indispensible ingredient of rational resource use, in transportation as in other areas of economic life, is for consumers to pay the full cost of their choices. That can’t happen so long as governments are paying the freight on their behalf. The reason Ontario roads are so clogged isn’t for lack of public subsidy. Quite the contrary: the more we spend building new and wider roads, the more congested they become. That’s not accidental. By building and maintaining roads at public ``expense that drivers could perfectly well pay for themselves -- Britain is in the process of implementing a nationwide, satellite-guided system of road tolls -- we are in effect paying drivers to use the roads. Or, if they do pay, it is in time, rather than money: the time spent idling in traffic jams. Which is perverse. It means scarce road space is given over to those who least need it. How much more would truckers and other time-sensitive travellers be willing to pay to use the roads, if only they were permitted to do so? And not only to save time.

Anyone who has driven on France’s immaculate toll-highways will have noticed, not only how smooth the ride is, but how many restaurants and rest stops line the way. It turns out drivers are willing to pay more for better roads -- more, that is, than ministers around the cabinet table, where roads must compete against the more pressing demands of health care, education and other public services. There’s a lesson in that for fans of public transit. Transit subsidies are supposed to lure drivers out of their cars, reduce fuel consumption and so on. They fail at this, on two counts. One, even if we subsidize people to consume fuel in less wasteful ways, we are still subsidizing them to consume fuel. And two, the last thing that is likely to make transit more attractive to passengers is to subsidize it.

Think of those French toll-roads: the reason they are so attentive to the needs of drivers is because they depend on drivers for their revenue. Whereas subsidies, in whatever field, insulate the providers of a service from the need to court consumers. Among the many projects for which the budget promised funding, the single largest was a $670-million extension of the Toronto subway system into the suburbs north of the city: subsidizing sprawl, just as generations of road-builders have done. Was this the best use of these funds? Is there more demand for the planned extension than, say, another line serving the city centre? How can we know, if not by asking consumers themselves? In any case, there’s a simpler, more direct way than subsidy to get drivers out of their cars and onto the subways: Start charging drivers to use the roads. They’ll get the message soon enough.
 
Okay, but how do you suggest to deal with the limited east-west expressway capability within the city limits? Outside of the city you've got the 407, but what do you suggest? I don't think there's any land left to create for east-west expressways in the city.

True, but it's because of this woefully inadequate base infrastructure that we can't afford to do all the nice things, like close off Yonge St. in the summer or tear down the Gardiner.
I'd love to not have to take the Gardiner every day, but if you drive, there is no choice.
I can't believe that the city spent millions 2 summers ago tearing up Sheppard between Keele and Jane to replace the sidewalks, curbs and the pavement down to the gravel - only to put back the same 4 lanes that were already there. Both Finch and Sheppard do have the easements to allow widening, but there is no political will.
 
I lived in Ottawa for four years in the early to mid 1990s and can say that Sparks isn't just dead past working hours. It's also dead once the temperature drops in the autumn. A pedesterian-only road works well in places that have nice weather, but when it's -20'C people want to drive to the store, dash in, buy what they want and dash back to their cars.

Funny. The only time I've ever been to Copenhagen, in February or March of 1987, it must have been -20'C. It's a "Nordic" country, remember.
 
Dichotomy, typically for you, you have responded to an argument I didn't make. I made no comparison between the amount of traffic on the 401 vs. any artery in Toronto, but merely pointed out that your claim that "our traffic is the worst in North America" is unsubstantiated by anything you have said. Again, I will ask, where are your figures? What are you using to make a comparison? Commute times? Bottlenecks? Average speed?

Well, we can just swap internet links and not bother to have a discussion, can't we? Are we going to trust the same studies that claim tearing down the end of the Gardiner will 'only' add 2-3 minutes to a commute? Whose figures are we going to use? I don't need studies to tell me that the Gardiner is now stopped in both directions most of the day. I don't need studies to tell me that building 15 or more 30+ story condos within a few blocks of Yonge/Bloor is going to cause chaos beyond belief. I don't need a study to show me that one parked FedEx truck or a cement mixer waiting his turn can back up traffic on an already overburdened road system by a few blocks. This is the problem with politics at all levels, but especially at the municipal: lets shuffle everything off to a study because Gawd forbid we should have to make a decision.

The 401 is the busiest highway in North America. Anyone who has driven on that can easily agree. The fact that a city of barely 5 million can boast that is outrageous.
For those of us who drive every day and who have suffered the roads in this city for 30+ years, the downward spiral is clear to see. Are there worse cities out there? I've read the traffic in Seoul can be very, very bad. But should we aspire to compare ourselves to cities like that?
When I stayed in Hollywood last year and had to make a flight out of Vegas by 3 pm, I planned my trip (expecting the worst of Tuesday 8 a.m. cross-town traffic) and actually got out of L.A. in less time than it would have taken me to go from Oakville to Jarvis St. Why? Because as bad as L.A.'s traffic is, they have alternate routes. Not just alternate highways, but alternate 6 and 8 lane arterial roads. Toronto has nothing.

If the city's only solution to traffic problems is to make thing worse for driver's, I don't see that as a solution at all. But when I see proposals for street festivals, highway closings and 'traffic calming' devices, I can get very crazy because having lived in this city on and off for most of my life, the death spiral seems to be relentless.

Archivist, let's turn this around: do you drive? Have you driven on a daily basis in and around this city since the '70s and witnessed, first hand, the mess this city is becoming? Have you driven extensively in other North American cities to compare this to? I am not trying to be in your face about this, I seriously want to know. I am the first to admit that I hate transit and will only use it if I am drunk or going somewhere very close, but I have experienced driving in many large cities in North America, and anecdotal or not, I only found New York's worse than here.
It seems that every argument involving traffic degenerates into the tree hugger/cyclist/car-hater camp demanding cars get banned from the city core. I love my car, but I'd never get nasty and demand less money for transit or pave over High Park (Queen's Park, maybe, but not High Park.)

Oh, and the personal attacks. Why do these debates always result in personal attacks? If people hate the automobile so much, why don't they move to a commune? There must be a few still in existence.
This 416/905 animosity has got to stop. If we were only arguing about commuters coming into the city I would agree that for those people transit is more the solution, but getting around in this city at most times of day is difficult and won't be getting easier unless something is done now.
 
Oh, and the personal attacks. Why do these debates always result in personal attacks? If people hate the automobile so much, why don't they move to a commune? There must be a few still in existence.
This 416/905 animosity has got to stop. If we were only arguing about commuters coming into the city I would agree that for those people transit is more the solution, but getting around in this city at most times of day is difficult and won't be getting easier unless something is done now.

Honestly, Dichotomy, if you want to deflect the personal attacks, you'll have to quit coming across as representing the "Mickey Rourke's Face" school of urban sensitivity...
 
During my drive to South Carolina last week I noticed that in some cities the expressway's have a gate that diverts traffic from one direction to another for the middle expresslanes.

Perhaps this would work in Toronto. For example, the express lanes of the east bound 401 from the DVP in the mornings could be switched to west bound express-express lanes.
 
Dichotomy, yes, I do personalize this, and I don't make any apologies for that. Personally, I find that you are both aggressive in what you say, and I find your arguments nonsensical. You frequently post factoids that are not based on anything other than prejudice, and when confronted with actual data you either ignore it, or state that it just doesn't matter. I suppose I would find it easier to bear if it wasn't so relentlessly negative.

A few things: no, I do not drive often. I prefer to walk, and have considered my life successful if I don't own a car. Recently I came into ownership of a truck. I don't see that this matters, in very much the same way that I do not care one whit whether you have driven in North American cities. Your personal experience is completely irrelevant to this discussion, as meaningless to me as someone saying they flew over LA on a connecting flight and as they looked out the window of their plane, traffic seemed to be moving fine, therefore, LA has no traffic problem.

I'll take just 32 words of yours and explain why I so frequently find your posts enraging:

The 401 is the busiest highway in North America. Anyone who has driven on that can easily agree. The fact that a city of barely 5 million can boast that is outrageous.

We easily agree? Well, no. Driven when? Compared with what? There is a field of study called "traffic engineering" that produces actual figures that are gathered on traffic volumes, but you are clearly uninterested in that - if you were confronted with actual figures, you would simply ignore them and post the same false statements later. That is enraging.

More to the point, your whole premise is off, it is 100% irrelevant whether or not the 401 is the busiest highway in North America. Of course it's one of the busiest highways, because it has the most capacity. There are very few highways with that many lanes, therefore, it has the highest capacity. Period. The only measures of traffic that make sense in identifying traffic problems would be driving times, speeds, bottlenecks, things that are in fact quantifiable and measurable, and which in fact are quantified and measured all the time. If someone takes 30 minutes to travel a kilometre on a highway in Chicago that has only 25% of the traffic volume of the 401, and the corresponding time on the 401 is 20 minutes, then that highway is more gridlocked than the 401. Total traffic volume is by itself, a meaningless figure.

So, when you say that it is "outrageous" that the 401 has that much traffic, you make a fool of yourself and show that you know nothing of what you speak.

This, in a nutshell, is why I deliberately personalize my rebuttals to you. Like no one else on this forum, you make up facts, make arguments that are logically absurd, push your irrelevant personal "experience" into the argument as if it actually supports your case, and don't engage or debate but just repeatedly spew the same junk out again and again and again.
 
Sorry, but I'm missing the post where Archivist brings up stats to prove that the 401 isn't that busy, and that traffic in Toronto is actually either non-existant, or considerably less of an issue than other major cities. Was that on another page?
 
^No, because he was never implying any of the things you mentioned.

So then is it just that he's arguing for the sake of accuracy?

I took it to mean he was suggesting that what Dichotomy was saying was false, because he had stats that disproved Dichotomy's experience. My mistake.
 
I guess I thought I was clear, but I'll explain further.

In another thread, people are discussing the traffic impact of a parking garage entrance from Jarvis into the proposed north market building. Now, this document here suggests that Jarvis street gets only 35,000 vehicles a day. This document here suggests that some of the volumes on the 401 are upwards of 400,000 vehicles a day.

From these two figures, is it possible to say that concerns about the traffic on Jarvis Street are unreasonable because the total volume of traffic is tiny compared to the 401? I think not. One would need to consider some other aspects of the issue, such as, perhaps, how long it takes people to get through the bottleneck, for how many hours of the day, what other routes are available, etc.

If you wanted to think further about it, you might explore options as people have done in the other thread (an entrance from Front - no, there's an obstacle there / put lanes through a closed city street - not a great option for city building, etc. etc.).

If you didn't want to think about it, you could say something like "The traffic on Jarvis is the worst in the entire world!".

But since there seems to be a call for some kind of statement of fact, then I will say confidently that I have been beside market buildings in Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Barcelona, Montreal, Boston, San Francisco and Tokyo and that the traffic beside the St. Lawrence Market in Toronto is the absolute least blocked of any of these. And since you ask, there's a lotta cars and trucks on the 401! Take my word for it.
 
I guess I thought I was clear, but I'll explain further.

In another thread, people are discussing the traffic impact of a parking garage entrance from Jarvis into the proposed north market building. Now, this document here suggests that Jarvis street gets only 35,000 vehicles a day. This document here suggests that some of the volumes on the 401 are upwards of 400,000 vehicles a day.

From these two figures, is it possible to say that concerns about the traffic on Jarvis Street are unreasonable because the total volume of traffic is tiny compared to the 401? I think not. One would need to consider some other aspects of the issue, such as, perhaps, how long it takes people to get through the bottleneck, for how many hours of the day, what other routes are available, etc.

If you wanted to think further about it, you might explore options as people have done in the other thread (an entrance from Front - no, there's an obstacle there / put lanes through a closed city street - not a great option for city building, etc. etc.).

If you didn't want to think about it, you could say something like "The traffic on Jarvis is the worst in the entire world!".

But since there seems to be a call for some kind of statement of fact, then I will say confidently that I have been beside market buildings in Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Barcelona, Montreal, Boston, San Francisco and Tokyo and that the traffic beside the St. Lawrence Market in Toronto is the absolute least blocked of any of these. And since you ask, there's a lotta cars and trucks on the 401! Take my word for it.

I understood what you were trying to say (are trying to say). Just pointing out that you're not really saying anything - you're just pointing to holes in his arguments, but never actually filling them yourself - even while accusing him of arguing without any facts.

I've just always found the best way to refute something like that is to actually bring up facts and stats yourself, that prove your point - rather than just relying on conjecture? YMMV.
 

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