[Hipster Duck]

If they are planing on ALRT (SRT/skytrain) type techonolgy, I think it would be a plus if all (non TTC) LRT plans use the same technology. Hence, being able to use the same vehicles and have track connections with the Hamilton and Mississauga LRT lines would be very beneficial.

I hope they never, ever open the books on that damn ALRT technology again. Electrifying the Lakeshore line should be the first step in a long-range plan to electrify passenger rail in southern Ontario and Quebec. First you start by wiring 100km with overhead 25kV AC in the GTA and then, gradually, extend it eastwards and westwards toward Montreal and Windsor to build a high speed rail network in the corridor.

I disagree somewhat about continuing to use our bilevel cars. EMUs allow different lengths to be coupled together for greater flexibility (eg: we could couple 2 3-car sets for weekend service, 4 3-car sets for rush hour service), and, with all axles driven, they can accelerate like rockets. We could keep some of our bilevel rolling stock for long distance, peak-hour service (like a Hamilton Toronto rush-hour express), but thanks to the fact that they are ubiquitous on a lot of NA commuter rail systems, we wouldn't be hard up to find buyers for them.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

^Remember that when Lakeshore is electrified and modernized the increased service levels are probably going to be high enough that you will need to keep the bilevels and buy new stock to handle new capacity, at least at first. You can do it all in phases so that you start by replacing the diesel locomotives with electric ones. The diesel locomotives can then be used on other non-electrified GO lines to help increase their capacity. The same is true of the bilevels. Slowly you could buy EMU bilevels or a couple single level EMUs to replace to the bilevels on Lakershore. Then you just move the old bilevels onto other lines as well. Essentially when another non-electrified line needs more capacity you just take stock off of Lakeshore and replace it with new EMUs.Just through natural growth and expansion of the system, once Lakershore is modernized it would probably take no more than 10 - 15 years for all the current stock to head off the line.

And it is also hard to say what exactly will work right now (in terms of frequency, train size, etc) since once a modernized Lakeshore line actually opens a lot of the theorey about growth and ridership could, and to some extent will, turn out to not be the case at all and require just going with what is actually turning out to be the case and making it up as you go along.

 

[roch5220]

I disagree somewhat about continuing to use our bilevel cars. .

And because chances are, they won't be needed if you increase the frequncies to a level of every 10-15 minutes.

On a side note, I'm not sure if LA still uses them, but they did have similar stock. It was back in 99/00 when I saw one.

This photo maynot be of LA, but I google imaged LA commutter train.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If they get rid of the bilevels, they'll still be forced to run 12+ car trains even with the greatly improved frequency...unless people don't mind standing.

 

[ShonTron]

NA commuter lines that use Bombardier Bilevels:
- GO Transit (Toronto)
- Translink "West Coast Express" (Vancouver)
- Agence Metropolitane de Transport (Montreal)

- Sound Transit "Sounder" (Seattle-Tacoma)
- Metrolink (Los Angeles)
- CalTrain (San Francisco-San Jose)
- Altamont Commuter Express (Altamont-San Jose)
- Coaster (San Diego)
- Rail Runner (Albuquerque)
- Trinity Western Express (Dallas-Fort Worth)
- Tri-Rail (Miami)
- Virginia Railway Express (Washington Metro)

 

[arnold]

that photo above is of the san diego "coaster" system trains. to the untrained eye (such as mine) they look exactly the same as the GO trains used up in toronto, but they usually run much smaller sets. i think around four cars. five max.

 

[jeicow]

..unless people don't mind standing.

Pretty much every rush hour train on Lakeshore West is standing room only by the time it gets to Port Credit (except for some express trains). The bottom floor is crowded enough as it is but it wouldn't be as bad it people would just go up a floor (heh, it's a lot like the low-floors)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yeah, and they'll be standing outside of rush hour, too, if they get rid of the bilevels.

 

[Observer Walt]

Sean: I am not sure why increasing the frequency of trains would mitigate parking lot problems. If anything, increased service will lead to increased demand. Assuming no improvements in local feeder bus service, the parking problems will only get worse, until the situation "tops out", so to speak, when no more cars can get into the parking lots at all and there is no space remaining to expand the lots.

The solution, as mentioned several times, would have to be improvement of feeder bus services by local transit authorities, encouraging people to ride a bus right from home to the GO station, where you could meet the train with minimal delays. Such service is in place already at a few stations, but more is needed, including at non-rush times.

 

[roch5220]

I've always stood on GO trains (from Clarkson during rushhour). Which is why I always sought to take express trains. But going from union, I believe I managed to get a seat most of the time.

Regardless, I would hope more frequent trains will increase capacity overall. From Clarkson, there are 2 trains from 6am-7, 5 from 7am-8 and 2 from 8-9. If the trains came every 10 minutes during say 6:30-8:30, I don't think it would be too much different. But who knows until we get full specs of whats going to be what.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

The solution, as mentioned several times, would have to be improvement of feeder bus services by local transit authorities, encouraging people to ride a bus right from home to the GO station, where you could meet the train with minimal delays. Such service is in place already at a few stations, but more is needed, including at non-rush times.

Agreed. I can see how feeder routes might not be the most attractive to riders if you have even 15 minute frequency since, if you miss a connection because of delays that is just enough time to turn people off of the idea. But if you have service in the 7 - 10 minute range, than I can see buses become a great deal more attractive to riders. And the volume that Lakeshore will see with new capacity and service will help create a much stronger customer base for local transit which means that adding more rush hour service will require less money with a bigger customer base to bringing in revunes.

GO will always serve a certain number of commuters who want to take a car to the GO train station. But what is likely is a shift in where those lots are located. Especially along the Lakeshore I could see a lot of parking lots being sold to developers or being used for expanded transit hubs. Then some of the new lines, like the two new lines in Pickering which would travel through less built up areas with more space for parking lots, could take over the park and ride role.

Once Lakeshore is modernized the same thing that happened to the Shephard subway stations will happen to the Lakeshore stations. In other words, development will explode and parking lots will very quickly fade away.

 

[Long Island Mike]

GO Transit Rail Electrification

Everyone: I myself am a proponent of electrification-where it is needed. I believe the GO Lakeshore Line from Oshawa to Hamilton can support electrification. BUT for this to happen the following would have to be done: GO would have to take control of this vital stretch of rail line from CN.

25 KV catenary would be a good idea for the power-in case anyone does not know-the GO bilevels have provisions for future electrification. This service could be a mix of MU cars and the current equipment along with NJ Transit-style ALP44 or ALP46 locomotives.

What would be done with the other GO routes? Which would warrant electrification? I feel that the bilevel equipment and diesel locos could boost service on the other GO routes. High-level platforms and MU cars might be nice-but it would cost billions to totally change around the entire GO system. What this electrification could also promote is electrifying the 335-mile CN main line to Montreal for that long talked-about VIA high speed service.

ST: That Metra Electric pic was taken at what station-Blue Island or South Chicago? Keep in mind those bilevels date from the early 70s and were acquired by the Illinois Central Gulf Railroad - predecessor to Metra Electric. METRA is looking to replace them in the coming years.
Back in the early 70s time period-I read an interesting story about the IC Electric-when new cars were being designed in the 70s there were dueling factions in the engineering department-some wanted single-level MU cars-what was talked about was a add-on order with the NY MTA and CDOT for M2 cars. BUT-There was a certain influential engineer that was infatuated with the Gallery-style bilevel as operated by railroads like C&NW and the Rock Island. That man-and his faction-won out and the Highliner MU was born. METRA has purchased a small group of 26 or so new gallery MUs - this may precede an order to replace the rest of the Highliner fleet.

I vaguely remember GO-ALRT-it would have replaced most of GOs rail system with UTDC designed ALRT cars-like the Scarborough RT. It seems like that idea faded somewhat fast. That pic is of a Bombadier - style LRT car-like the NYC JFK Airtrain or BC's Skytrain.
In closing electrifying busy GO Rail routes is a good idea-provided certain problems such as track ownership can be ironed out. LI MIKE

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

What would be done with the other GO routes?

For the moment other routes will remain as they are. However, this is likely to change too. There is not much sense planning beyond the Lakeshore line until it is well underway. Modernizing it will be a very big project and until the backbone of the system is up and running, or close to it, there is not much point worrying about other lines.

Which would warrant electrification?

Most would. What might be very likely is electrifying a lot of the lines to the edge of the GTA or the most built up areas. This would let GO use faster, electric EMUs in built up areas to help move people while leaving longer commuting to diesel train sets. I would guess that Georgetown line would be the next line to be electrified followed by Stouffeville and Milton.

What this electrification could also promote is electrifying the 335-mile CN main line to Montreal for that long talked-about high speed service

Yes and no. VIA is largely funded by the federal government. The MoveOntario project is largely funded by the province. What VIA and GO do is mostly going to be dealt with seperately. What is good for VIA is that with a modernized GO line they may be able to work out an arrangement with GO to gain some of the benefits from a modernized Lakeshore line which would be good since it would mean modernizing inter city travel would be able to avoid a lot of the cost of the inner city upgrades when it took place. But aside from that this will have very little effect on VIA.

Actually the chances of the current line between Montreal and Toronto being electrified are probably not all that great. There is a lot of freight traffic that uses the line so even with electrification it still would not be able to offer reliable service since it would still have to contend with CN. A new route between the two cities is going to be the only real way to offer proper inner city service (not too say some of the current right of way would not be used though).

In closing electrifying busy GO Rail routes is a good idea-provided certain problems such as track ownership can be ironed out.

Few would disagree with that point. The project is still being developed and there is still a great deal that has yet to be made public. Track ownership will be addressed though.

 

[unimaginative2]

The other GO routes aren't staying as they are, though. While they are not getting electrification right away, they're embarking on massive track improvements. That secondary press release that I posted shows that they're going to double-track the Bradford line, something that we've never heard about before. That should allow all-day service on all lines, which is a huge change.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Unimaginative: I was thinking only in terms of electrification but you are right, there are a lot of improvments across most of the GO routes. And there is the extension of Lakeshore service to Bowmanville, and the two new Pickering routes, and extending Stouffeville service too Uxbridge.

There is also SuperGO, which I believe is just the name for a modernization program that GO will start undertaking on its lines (including electrification, new vehicles, any other necessary upgrades), Lakeshore being the first, but I am still trying to get a straight answer from GO about it so I am not totally certain if that is the case or not.