[MapleLeafs]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ard-with-electric-airport-trains?bn=1#article

Looks like electric is on the way!

Can someone explain to me why the Georgetown line is projected to be the first to be electrified? Because for the life of me, I can't figure out a logical reason why it should get priority over the Lakeshore lines.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Can someone explain to me why the Georgetown line is projected to be the first to be electrified? Because for the life of me, I can't figure out a logical reason why it should get priority over the Lakeshore lines.

Politics..

 

[Markster]

Can someone explain to me why the Georgetown line is projected to be the first to be electrified? Because for the life of me, I can't figure out a logical reason why it should get priority over the Lakeshore lines.

Just the section out to the airport is getting electrified first. Lakeshore is immediately after that.

There are a few reasons for this:
1) Politics. The Airport rail link is pissing people off by being desiel. This way, they can say "oh, we'll convert it to electric, ASAP." and pacify those complaints.
2) Working out the bugs. They haven't built electric before, and it's frankly better that if anything goes wrong, that it goes wrong on a strech that isn't as busy as Lakeshore. Once they're done this strech of Georgetown, they should be able to do Lakeshore without much problem.

 

[Platform 27]

The ARL is also first up because it means they can dodge wiring up Union Station for the first phase, which is a big financial hit.

If you dig into the appendices of the report, there's another huge factor: Georgetown South ought to have all of its overhead clearances electrification-ready by 2015, but Lakeshore--particularly Lakeshore West, IIRC--has a fair number of bridge rebuilds that are needed. That means $$$, which means getting kicked down the queue.

I think it's for the best they're proposing this phasing: putting all the big ticket items in the first phase would have been a recipe for sticker shock and a future government getting cold feet and cancelling. Also, if you did the Lakeshore line first then there'd be a plausible chance a future government would call off further electrification of lower ridership services. At least by back-loading some of the big ridership wins you keep the incentive to keep pushing through the plan's phasing.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

If you dig into the appendices of the report, there's another huge factor: Georgetown South ought to have all of its overhead clearances electrification-ready by 2015, but Lakeshore--particularly Lakeshore West, IIRC--has a fair number of bridge rebuilds that are needed. That means $$$, which means getting kicked down the queue.

My guess is that starting late this year or in 2012 you will see a lot more investment in the Lakeshore line on projects such as bridge rebuilding, track expansion, etc, that will be required to get the line ready for electrification.

And I've said this in other threads but it is worth repeating here, despite the fact that GO may get ripped on for not doing enough, it has actually handled expansion in a pretty smart way. They are basically trying to build a regional rail network without having to undertake too many large, and thus politically volatile projects. A diamond crossing separation here, some new tracks there, an extension of this and that line, a handful of grade crossings each year. It's a pretty clever approach. Before you know it Georgetown and Lakeshore are electrified and suddenly you have tangible evidence and momentum for continuing the project on other lines.

 

[Voltz]

If you dig into the appendices of the report, there's another huge factor: Georgetown South ought to have all of its overhead clearances electrification-ready by 2015, but Lakeshore--particularly Lakeshore West, IIRC--has a fair number of bridge rebuilds that are needed. That means $$$, which means getting kicked down the queue.

Are they talking about signal bridges or road bridges on lakeshore west?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Politics..

i'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that there will be all kinds of construction on the georgetown corridor starting very soon.

 

[MapleLeafs]

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I kind of figured politics would have some role in it. It is unfortunate that they can't grow a spine and tell these people to shut it. You buy a house near the railway tracks and then complain when... get this... trains go down the tracks. It's an outrage I say!

The bridges/clearances thing makes complete sense when dealing with the Lakeshore line however. I would imagine many of them, specifically those where the tracks run adjacent to the Gardiner, do need to be renovated or rebuilt to have adequate clearance. They are lucky in a sense in that many of them are aging as it is and will need eventually replacement.

I think my preference is still that the Lakeshore line should be electrified first. You serve the greatest number of riders and you help pave the way for (hopefully) a future high speed rail line. I understand that there may be bugs in the new system or that the other lines may not follow suit, but I still think the overall ridership numbers should overpower those drawbacks IMO.

 

[Dan416]

Personally I'm dismayed they didn't put Milton on the first phase, at least to serve the portion through Mississauga. Don't really care about Milton

 

[drum118]

Personally I'm dismayed they didn't put Milton on the first phase, at least to serve the portion through Mississauga. Don't really care about Milton

Until CP and GO come to agreement as to what the line will look like, the line is off the table at this time.

Again, this line does not have the ridership as the Lakeshore W where it does service Mississauga.

In fact Lakeshore W should be built first over Lakeshore E or at least at the same time considering the W section will be done as far as Willowbrook and not that hard to carry on west of it.

I would not be surprise to see the 4th track show up on the Lakeshore during the Electrification like I said it would during the EA.

 

[Dan416]

Until CP and GO come to agreement as to what the line will look like, the line is off the table at this time.

Again, this line does not have the ridership as the Lakeshore W where it does service Mississauga.

In fact Lakeshore W should be built first over Lakeshore E or at least at the same time considering the W section will be done as far as Willowbrook and not that hard to carry on west of it.

I would not be surprise to see the 4th track show up on the Lakeshore during the Electrification like I said it would during the EA.

Obviously Lakeshore's Mississauga segment has higher usage than Milton's Mississauga segment; it has all-day train service. If Milton had all-day train service, I would be willing to bet the Milton stations would eventually outperform the Lakeshore stations (a lot of Mississauga South is really rather low-density).

 

[CDL.TO]

Obviously Lakeshore's Mississauga segment has higher usage than Milton's Mississauga segment; it has all-day train service. If Milton had all-day train service, I would be willing to bet the Milton stations would eventually outperform the Lakeshore stations (a lot of Mississauga South is really rather low-density).

I agree. Right now Port Credit has 25 Toronto-bound trips a day and Cooksville just up the street has only 7 Toronto-bound trips, but ridership at Cooksville is about 30% higher. That doesn't even include Cooksville's train-bus passengers.

I have no doubt that frequent service on the Milton line would be a resounding success.

 

[TOareaFan]

a lot of Mississauga South is really rather low-density).

I don't recall it exactly but didn't the big move declare the GT line the 2nd highest density transit corridor in the study area (behind only the Bloor subway).....perhaps that is why it is getting the investment it is now and also being prioritized for electrification?

 

[Dan416]

I don't recall it exactly but didn't the big move declare the GT line the 2nd highest density transit corridor in the study area (behind only the Bloor subway).....perhaps that is why it is getting the investment it is now and also being prioritized for electrification?

I remember reading this as well. They're probably including the Toronto portion of Georgetown with stations like Bloor and Etobicoke North and Weston. The 416 has higher densities than 905 obviously. But if you just were to consider the Mississauga portion of Milton versus the Brampton portion of Georgetown, I think Mississauga would win hands down. That's just a guess, not looking at any numbers.

It's not that I don't believe Georgetown should get electrified for the Air Rail link, I just think Milton should be right up there with Georgetown and Lakeshore.

 

[rbt]

It's not that I don't believe Georgetown should get electrified for the Air Rail link, I just think Milton should be right up there with Georgetown and Lakeshore.

Electrification of Milton today would not increase capacity or improve trip times.

Milton requires a substantial number of widenings and grade separations before electrification would make a difference.

Electrification, for the purposes of this report, does not include any frequency boosts or widenings for capacity. Those are separate; otherwise electrification would be a $10B ticket item for LakeShore alone to get to 10 minute all day frequencies.