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And you missed the point on this one.

The long-promised Malvern extension of the SRT would only be capable of running to Malvern Town Centre if the line is built as either a subway or ICTS (and frankly, as a subway, even that's not likely to happen). It's not feasible to build either to points beyond, as there are too many spread nodes that need to be served.

That was the beauty of running LRT - you could have cars arrive from the ROW to the south-west, and then continue on a number of different routes, any of which could run on the surface or a ROW depending on how busy the forecasted ridership for the line was. Ditto for a line along Ellesmere, or north along Kennedy - both of which had been foreseen as being necessary in the future by the 1970s reports.

You can't do any of that with an ICTS or subway, as your construction costs are multiple factors higher than surface LRT.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

There have been countless Transit City, Big Move, OneCity and other miscellaneous transit plans or ideas, and not one of them had the idea of branching. I would say the chances of extending SkyTrain beyond Malvern would probably be higher than incorporating branches into what is currently designed.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the Finch LRT and Sheppard LRT are no gos. With the re-introduction of the long artic buses, we may be able to go with BRTs. Not sure if these BRTs are the VIVA style ones, or just widening of lanes and adding diamond/painted lanes.

I also wonder if by cancelling the FINCH LRT, we can use a BRT that will cover both Phase 1 and 2 (all the way to Yonge St), plus an extension from Humber College to Rexdale (to service Woodbine race track), then down to Hwy 427 to the Airport (finally rapid transit that goes to the airport!)

For Sheppard, they really should look to extend the Sheppard Subway 2 stops east to Vic Park. Currently the traffic in the intersection around Sheppard and Hwy 404 is absolutely awful, so not sure if they can afford to take out a lane for buses. Also, Vic Park has a business park and several apartment complexes in the vicinity. From there, they should look to run a BRT all the way to UT Scarborough (finally), but also have 2 routes - one that goes to UT Scarb, and the other that goes straight to STC.
 
And yet they got money to build even more expensive system. The "lighting, signaling, traction power, etc." are also needed for LRT too... Its funny that in Vancouver, that statement would read "the LRT system is within the same cost as SkyTrain (80-100M/km vs 100-120M/km) yet with half the capacity (7500-15000pphpd vs 25000-30000pphpd)".

Traction power, yes. But lighting and signalling are not necessary depending on the design characteristics of the line. The lines that run in the middle of the streets would only have additional lighting at stops, and no need for power wires for those lights to be run (and maintained) in the ROW; and no signalling would be needed in the open sections either.

Because of the design of ICTS or subway, there is no way to avoid those costs.

There have been countless Transit City, Big Move, OneCity and other miscellaneous transit plans or ideas, and not one of them had the idea of branching. I would say the chances of extending SkyTrain beyond Malvern would probably be higher than incorporating branches into what is currently designed.

Not so - one of the plans for the Sheppard East line had a branch of the line running down to the UofT at Scarborough. The Finch West line may have two branches, one to Humber and the other to the Airport. And if you go back further, there have been lots of plans, some of them have been better thought-out than others. Why preclude that possibility if it makes sense to do so at some point in the future?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
I also wonder if by cancelling the FINCH LRT, we can use a BRT that will cover both Phase 1 and 2 (all the way to Yonge St), plus an extension from Humber College to Rexdale (to service Woodbine race track), then down to Hwy 427 to the Airport (finally rapid transit that goes to the airport!)

If the $1.2 billion isn't enough, the TTC can identify non-congestion areas and only implement queue jump lanes at major intersections in those areas, in order to save on costs. Doesn't make much sense to build dedicated transit lanes to bypass congestion when there's little to no congestion to bypass. Besides, most congestion usually occurs around intersections anyway, which the queue jump lanes would help bypass.

Then, once the service is operational, if those non-bypassed areas become an issue, the TTC can come back with $25-50 million annually in the capital budget and add 1-2km of dedicated BRT lanes along the affected stretch.
 
Not so - one of the plans for the Sheppard East line had a branch of the line running down to the UofT at Scarborough. The Finch West line may have two branches, one to Humber and the other to the Airport. And if you go back further, there have been lots of plans, some of them have been better thought-out than others. Why preclude that possibility if it makes sense to do so at some point in the future?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I was thinking of in-median branches sharing a grade-separated "core".
 
^Well written, ShonTron. The Star really did back the Neptis review blindly, IMO.
 
I wrote a letter to the Star questioning their enthusiasm for the Neptis review of the Big Move, specifically regarding the DRL but also Eglinton-Crosstown station spacing and the enthusiasm for ICTS.

They published it on December 30, 2013.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2013/12/30/transit_review_deeply_flawed.html

While your article is write to correct some of Neptis' mistakes, I don't think these corrections really challenge the fundamental premises and conclusions of the Neptis Report.

This proposed alternative has several other problems, such as relying on an at-capacity Union Station to take on this new “relief†service, the rather undesirable transfer through a long tunnel at Main Street, and the complete disregard for intermediate origins and destinations that a subway can serve, and the uselessness of such an alternative for much of east-end Toronto and East York. Schabas is dreaming when he claims that such an alternative would provide the necessary relief.

Your ultimate conclusion (Schabas is dreaming when he claims that [an enhanced GO shuttle] would provide the necessary relief) is wrong however. Projected capacity shortfalls on Yonge are not, in fact, very large; assuming a YSE, bout 1,000-2,000 peak hour riders. A GO shuttle service is capable of addressing that gap.

Granted, as you say, such a service wouldn't do much for the shoulder areas downtown. This gets into the larger question of what the DRL is for. Thusfar, it's mostly been sold as a relief (even see the name...) valve for the Yonge Subway. As the TTC report showed, the DRL isn't expected to do much for East York or Toronto either; most of its ridership is assumed to transfer from Bloor-Danforth. Without commenting on how the transit to these shoulder areas should be improved, Schabas is reasonably arguing that the DRL isn't very cost efficient at its intended goal (Yonge diversion).

There are other flaws to the Neptis review: Schabas advocates removing several stations on the Eglinton-Crosstown light rail line currently under construction, ignoring local needs along the corridor. He also advocates for the use of Bombardier’s ICTS technology; the very same technology that now needs to be replaced on the Scarborough RT corridor.

To your first point, a central argument made by Steve Munro and others in the context of the Scarborough subway is that no area "needs" or "deserves" any particular technology outside of what ridership justifies. Avenue and Eglinton doesn't "need" a station, and local ridership certainly doesn't justify one. These stations cost tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars and, in many cases, provide very little marginal benefit for transit users. Running a parallel bus on Eglinton would cost, at most, 3-5 million dollars per year, a fraction of the cost of constructing underused stations like Avenue Road. The bulk of ridership wouldn't even notice since their feeder buses could be diverted to nearby stations.

The issue of ICTS is neither here nor there. I agree it's a bit odd that the author specified ICTS (as opposed to a generic "medium capacity system," of which there are many qualified vendors), but the main point he was making isn't really impacted by it.
 
I think the reason he suggested ART is that you already have 7 km of it built. All that is needed is a correction on the line to accommodate MK111 cars and the money saved could be used to make the Eg/SRT line one constant grade separated one. Considering Toronto's ridiculously small rapid transit system, the last thing it needs is to tear down existing corridors and spend billions on a new line which will only expand service by 1,5 km. Only in Toronto would such a thing be even dreamed of.

The fact that the TTC keeps stating that ART doesn't work in the snow is farcical. It will be considerably cheaper to build, run, and have higher capacity than Eg LRT.

As far as the GO improvements, I don't think he was saying that the DRL won't be eventually needed but rather the city needs that relief now not 15 years from now. A standard GO/TTC fare would take many of the travellers from Scar off the Danforth line which would consequently relieve Y&B. That is something that could be implemented tomorrow if the will was there but alas due to Metrolinx's incompetence and GO and the TTC acting as fiefdom as opposed to agencies serving the general public, that will not happen.
 
the "small corrections" to allow for MKIII trains would be the most expensive portions of a conversion. You would need to completely rebuild Kennedy as well as the tunnel turn as it goes off of the rail corridor to fit the longer MKIII trains, as well as rebuild and extend every station. at that point you save maybe $100-$200 million over LRT costs of conversion and it simply isn't worth it.
 
As far as the GO improvements, I don't think he was saying that the DRL won't be eventually needed but rather the city needs that relief now not 15 years from now. A standard GO/TTC fare would take many of the travellers from Scar off the Danforth line which would consequently relieve Y&B. That is something that could be implemented tomorrow if the will was there but alas due to Metrolinx's incompetence and GO and the TTC acting as fiefdom as opposed to agencies serving the general public, that will not happen.

The trouble is that even the solution Schabas advocates would have minimal "relief" as it is not a pleasant, seemless transfer even if it's underground and would require capital to build several pocket tracks and capacity between Danforth and Union. It pretty much ignores the fact that Union Station is nearly saturated, the improvements underway only help get a few new trains in there and mostly improve internal flow and get the needed state of good repair work completed. It's also dangerous as it kicks the DRL can much further down the road. The Star bought it without questioning it, saying "the report had a particularly harsh opinion of a proposed downtown subway relief line — a top priority of the TTC."
 
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It's also dangerous as it kicks the DRL can much further down the road. The Star bought it without questioning it, saying "the report had a particularly harsh opinion of a proposed downtown subway relief line — a top priority of the TTC."

That's the thing though; the DRL has never (ever) gone through any kind of detailed cost-benefit analysis. So far, the main justification for the DRL has focused on the presumed "need" (which, again, is a highly inappropriate term for transit planning) to relieve Yonge. In that key regard, I think the Neptis report is quite convincing that the DRL doesn't make great financial sense.

I think intuitively most people feel there *should* be a second E-W subway downtown to serve shoulder areas and provide an alternative to impracticably slow surface transit. But this isn't some kind of self-obvious project.

I hope that one day there is better RT downtown, but that's not going to come from latching onto poorly thought out transit plans.
 
In that key regard, I think the Neptis report is quite convincing that the DRL doesn't make great financial sense.

I don't see how one single individual can be so damned convincing. He can't get even the history of Main Street Station right! You haven't countered my arguments as to why his alternative plan was very unrealistic, just trying to throw cold water on the DRL. I'm exaggerating a bit, but you'd almost need giant claws ripping people out of their seats on the BD subway and on to waiting GO trains to get enough people to make that transfer.

How do you explain how the highest priority is on a Richmond Hill extension, when there's a GO line right there? Shouldn't they be the ones forced onto GO trains? (Not that I agree, but there's some really strange ideas.)
 
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In what world is the DRL not viable? If there's one new subway line in the city that's viable, it's the DRL. Nothing else even comes close, there's massive pent up demand for mass transit in that corridor. And yes, it can provide service to the neighbourhoods it goes through while still relieving Yonge. Only in Toronto is serving those areas considered unimportant.
 

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