[MissEgoGrande]

I'm looking into purchasing a pre-construction condo from Lanterra. I'm suspecting that the balcony's sq. ft. is included in the size of the total condo sq. ft. The balcony is huge and according to my calculations is roughly 88 sq.ft. Lanterra insists that the balcony sq. ft. is NOT included in the total condo size. Did anyone ever have to deal with issues like that? As far as I know, the encyclopedia of Real Estate states that only living space is counted toward the condo size and spaces like porch, basement, deck, etc are not. How do I go about it? It seems like they are selling 685 sq.ft. for the price of 773 sq.ft. Lanterra is refusing to provide blueprints and/or architectural drawings. Did anyone ever have experience with the builders??? Thank you

 

[w.ll.am]

Typically the drawings are not set in stone until they start building so sizing can change before then. If they change it then I think you're allowed to back out at that point.

Measurements include all walls and are not measured from wall to wall. Even the outside wall is measured to the halfway point as being part of your square footage. This is common with all condos.

I don't think you'd find a single builder to provide you with the actual blueprint.

 

[Hydrogen]

I'm looking into purchasing a pre-construction condo from Lanterra. I'm suspecting that the balcony's sq. ft. is included in the size of the total condo sq. ft. The balcony is huge and according to my calculations is roughly 88 sq.ft. Lanterra insists that the balcony sq. ft. is NOT included in the total condo size. Did anyone ever have to deal with issues like that? As far as I know, the encyclopedia of Real Estate states that only living space is counted toward the condo size and spaces like porch, basement, deck, etc are not. How do I go about it? It seems like they are selling 685 sq.ft. for the price of 773 sq.ft. Lanterra is refusing to provide blueprints and/or architectural drawings. Did anyone ever have experience with the builders??? Thank you

Balconies are common areas for the exclusive use of a unit owner, so they should never be included in the purchase price. Actual room sizes may not add up to the total square footage of a unit because things like interior walls and a portion of your surrounding wall space are part of the purchase price. In other words, total square footage and the combined area of all your rooms can be different.

Concerning the balcony issue, you might want to check with a lawyer if you are not sure.

 

[MissEgoGrande]

See, exactly. I'm not looking for those 773 sq. ft. exactly - I understand that there can be come variances and changes, but when there's a 100 sq. ft. difference between the plan and my calculations, then it makes me wonder. Also, it's frustrating that even Lanterra's own employees do NOT know for sure. One says it's not included, the other says it's included. None of the two will provide me with a written statement of the measurements. My calculations can be off by 20, fine 30 sq. feet, but we are talking a hundred. It seems like there's a marketing trick present. And of course, no one is returning my calls and messages.

 

[AKS]

If you are really worried. Get a professional to do the measurement and ask for advice.

Some guesses here. I'm not exactly sure how thick the walls are and how you've measured it. But assume the walls are 6" thick on either side (your unit is 6" and neighbour is 6"). Assume shape of a square. 27.8 x 27.8 = 773 sq ft. You said it's short by 100 sq ft. So around 673 sq ft. 25.9 x 25.9. (25.9+.5) x (25.9+.5) = 697 sq ft. side walls have taken up 24 sq ft. There's also walls inside the room. Also, I think the builders estimate may be off by +/- 5% or so of actual size. If you really want to be picky about getting exactly what you want in size and craftsmanship, it's best to buy something on resale. That way you know exactly what you get. If you're buying pre-construction, it's a risk. The builders have a lot of "terminologies" in the agreement that protects them from getting sued.

 

[digi]

Tarion has a PDF on their site that describes exactly how a condo is measured.
Some builders in the past have included the 'share of common elements' in the area calculation, artificially inflating the size.

 

[MissEgoGrande]

If you are really worried. Get a professional to do the measurement and ask for advice.

Some guesses here. I'm not exactly sure how thick the walls are and how you've measured it. But assume the walls are 6" thick on either side (your unit is 6" and neighbour is 6"). Assume shape of a square. 27.8 x 27.8 = 773 sq ft. You said it's short by 100 sq ft. So around 673 sq ft. 25.9 x 25.9. (25.9+.5) x (25.9+.5) = 697 sq ft. side walls have taken up 24 sq ft. There's also walls inside the room. Also, I think the builders estimate may be off by +/- 5% or so of actual size. If you really want to be picky about getting exactly what you want in size and craftsmanship, it's best to buy something on resale. That way you know exactly what you get. If you're buying pre-construction, it's a risk. The builders have a lot of "terminologies" in the agreement that protects them from getting sued.

No kidding - that plus having Minden Gross as the their lawyers. But I do see your point - thank you for the calculations. I don't think I'm being picky as I don't expect them to be precise measurements (I also wonder if the builder would ever actually add more sq. footage other than taking it away from me). Resale seems like a good alternative except for the sellers taking the measurements of the builders' websites so those might be off as well. There's certainly risk attached to buying before the builder even breaks the ground, but my experience dealing with Lanterra and the real estate agency hired to deal with the prospective buyers is definitely not the most positive one. I want answers, that's all. It seems like such a small thing to ask for - exact dimensions of the place. However, I am still suspecting that they might be including the balcony into the gross sq. footage and unfortunately the inspection is not an option. I will have to look at Tarion and get my lawyer's opinion on that. Lanterra was sued by former buyers that their condos were undersized and without much luck (thanks to Minden Gross), but that has to be double-checked.

 

[cdr108]

From the sounds of your concerns with Lanterra and pre-construction, I would inquire as to why you would want to bother with this project.

I believe AKS's estimation is bang on ...
using a box as a template from the floor plan;
add 1 ft to the total width, add 1 ft to the total length;
multiply the width x length and that should equal the total sf.

typically, total USUABLE sf is about 8-10% LESS than builder's GROSS sf 'as per plan'.

Also, let's say you get a blueprint with the dimensions ...
in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, your should point out that there is a clause in their in favour of the developer that they can change the floorplan at will and you will NOT be compensated for any difference in SF as the purchase price of the unit is not based upon .... yada yada yada.

 

[Observer Walt]

For the full technical requirements as to how floor measurements are calculated, go to the Tarion website www.tarion.com , click on "Builder Bulletins", and scroll down to Bulletin #22. It would likely be worth reading in detail.

Note that in a high-rise building, the stated floor area is taken at the midpoint of the building. Units on lower floors may have slightly less floor area and those on upper floors may have slightly more, as structural supporting elements of the building are larger at the bottom.

On any floor plan drawings which I have seen (and I have seen many), floor areas are stated clearly, based on actual enclosed and year-round living area. A balcony or terrace area is not enclosed living area. Its area may also be stated separately, but not as part of the basic floor area.

The suggestion was made above that you incorporate the floor plan drawing with square footage into your Agreement of Purchase and Sale. If this is done, and it is acknowledged by both parties that it forms part of the Agreement, I think you would have a strong basis for complaint if you later find that it is incorrect. Don't rely on verbal assurances from sales persons, who are probably honest but not knowledgeable in all of the technicalities.

 

[MissEgoGrande]

From the sounds of your concerns with Lanterra and pre-construction, I would inquire as to why you would want to bother with this project.

I believe AKS's estimation is bang on ...
using a box as a template from the floor plan;
add 1 ft to the total width, add 1 ft to the total length;
multiply the width x length and that should equal the total sf.

typically, total USUABLE sf is about 8-10% LESS than builder's GROSS sf 'as per plan'.

Also, let's say you get a blueprint with the dimensions ...
in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, your should point out that there is a clause in their in favour of the developer that they can change the floorplan at will and you will NOT be compensated for any difference in SF as the purchase price of the unit is not based upon .... yada yada yada.

The reason why I bother with this condo is because I like the layout - it's perfect! Also, being realistic, I understand that buying pre-construction poses a certain risk and I want to analyze and make sure I'm making the right choice. That's the reason why I'm approaching the matter from all possible sides and talking to everyone who had any experience or knows how to approach the matter. Moreover, it's educational to know what reference material is out there so I have something to turn to in case I have more legal questions. But thank you so much, I do appreciate your help!

 

[MissEgoGrande]

For the full technical requirements as to how floor measurements are calculated, go to the Tarion website www.tarion.com , click on "Builder Bulletins", and scroll down to Bulletin #22. It would likely be worth reading in detail.

Note that in a high-rise building, the stated floor area is taken at the midpoint of the building. Units on lower floors may have slightly less floor area and those on upper floors may have slightly more, as structural supporting elements of the building are larger at the bottom.

On any floor plan drawings which I have seen (and I have seen many), floor areas are stated clearly, based on actual enclosed and year-round living area. A balcony or terrace area is not enclosed living area. Its area may also be stated separately, but not as part of the basic floor area.

The suggestion was made above that you incorporate the floor plan drawing with square footage into your Agreement of Purchase and Sale. If this is done, and it is acknowledged by both parties that it forms part of the Agreement, I think you would have a strong basis for complaint if you later find that it is incorrect. Don't rely on verbal assurances from sales persons, who are probably honest but not knowledgeable in all of the technicalities.

That's what I have been trying to get out of Lanterra - a breakdown of what is the balcony and what is enclosed area. As soon as I have that, I will get my lawyer to incorporate that into the agreement and we'll move from there. I have picked up my documents today and will have the lawyer work on them in the next 10 days. After April 13th, this whole affair will either be over or I can toast to my very own brand new condo! Thank you so much for your advice - helps to have some legal reference material!

 

[SpadinaBus]

For an after occupancy method, one neighbour in our building actually hired a professional surveyor to survey his suite and then through the Tarion process, got money back from the developer. Seemed to work quite well.

 

[AKS]

I should mention also, if your floor plan is round/curved, you lose square footage. Let's say the condo in a circle. They measure by taking the shape of a square. So you lose square footage on the curve that's part of the square but not part of the floor plan.

 

[Josef]

I sympathize with your situation M.E.G. It gets very frustrating and eye opening knowing how there's significant lack of communication and respect between the builder and its staff, towards the client. There's a lot of uneducated and cold individuals out there.

Respectfully,
Josef

 

[Josef]

I also sent you a private message. Please check it out, as it will help you.