[CanadianNational]

Wow - what a surprise!
The government that has been exceptionally slow on school funding, the waterfront, transit, subsidized housing, payements to cultural institutions, Toronto's budget, etc., et al - has been lightning quick to step up and dicuss paying for a new highway across the top of the city. This, just after the debacle that was the construction and selling off of the 407.
Wow! Amazing!

 

[Chuck100]

AoD:

The idea is to improve transit first to get people hooked, then make gradual improvements to the auto based network. When tied in with planning policies that put proper growth in easy to serve areas, the goal should be for everyone to have access to a fast means of travel to wherever they're going.

If traffic is bad, then you should be able to take transit and not expect the trip to last 2 hours. If transit is not possible to provide, then you should have access to a road that is free of traffic. As long as the GTA grows properly in the future, this should be possible with sensible improvements to transit, roads, and even cycling and pedestrian infrastructure.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"But if more commuters took public transit, that would free up our existings roads for use by transport."

Then commuters would see the empty highways and switch back to their cars

There must be some kind of pressure on them to switch, like insane gas prices or the ability to read/work while commuting. And they're only oging to switch if the trip doesn't take triple the time or longer.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

There must be some kind of pressure on them to switch, like insane gas prices or the ability to read/work while commuting. And they're only oging to switch if the trip doesn't take triple the time or longer.

The pressure is building. Its called gridlock. That's why another highway makes no sense. In a decade we'll be back to where we started. Provide transit and make sure people live and work near this transit.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

The pressure is building. Its called gridlock. That's why another highway makes no sense. In a decade we'll be back to where we started. Provide transit and make sure people live and work near this transit.

This makes total sense and Im sure most people would quickly catch onto this idea if it were discussed in the context of an intelligent conversation.

But expressways are being talked about in a political sense, which means what happens in the future is irrelevant, what matters is right now, this very instant, and the idea of how someone will make your life better for today at any cost possible.

One or two good hurricanes, more unrest in the Middle East, and maybe an attack or two on oil sands operations and $2.00 a litre gasoline at the pumps would put a quick end to this idea.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

I agree with anyone who suggests we need to spend money on highway infrastructure as well. The issue here is that another east west highway placed north of the green belt is not a priority for the GTA at this time. Extentions of the 427, 407, 404, mid-peninsula highway, enhanced border crossings at buffalo and windsor etc are all initiatives of a far more pressing concern, regardless of if you are in favour of them. Perhaps in 15-20 years we can start talking about a highway 9 situated east-west highway route north of the greenbelt, but god help us because by that time Toronto will likely be one of the biggest sprawl hell holes on earth and any patch of dirt big enough to hang your coat in the old City of Toronto will cost more then a million dollars.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

but god help us because by that time Toronto will likely be one of the biggest sprawl hell holes on earth and any patch of dirt big enough to hang your coat in the old City of Toronto will cost more then a million dollars.

There is a plus side to it all. It means you will be able to drive from Cobourg to Kitchener without that perky countryside/nature getting in the way of all the beautiful suburban scenery.

 

[MrOttawa]

Mid-peninsula highway and new border crossings are essential to our economy. Full Stop!!

 

[afransen TO]

Mid peninsula should only go through if there is tight new restrictions on residential development outside of the existing cities and villages in the Niagara region. Niagara has some extremely precious agricultural land (much of which has been paved over already in St. Catharines because of the QEW) that should not be squandered on McMansions for Hamiltonians. My family stands to gain if the MPC ever is built, as we own a fair amount of property a few kilometers from the likeliest alignment they would use in its construction. I still think its a bad idea. I'd hate to see this area destroyed for the sake of suburbia.

 

[spmarshall]

Mid-peninsula is not necessarily a bad idea. My problem with it is the long swoop around Burlington to connect with the 407 and QEW, which would damage a good deal of the escarpment. Welland could use the boost that highway would provide. Instead of stopping there, I would direct it to conenct to the 401 somewhere around Guelph or K-W, and serve the function of connecting Hamilton and Niagara (and the US) better with Brantford and K-W area. And restrictions must be kept, but direct some growth that way (ie around Welland) to protect what's left of the soft fruit and winery lands below, but also the hard fruit and other good agriculture above.

I'm much more opposed to intra-city or suburban highways rather than those of an inter-city nature, of which I think there needs to be better connections, such as Guelph to K-W, finishing of Highway 8 to Stratford, etc.

 

[Mike in TO]

Afransen, The greenbelt has protected vast swaths of land in Niagara Region. The grape growing areas have additional levels of protection.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Intra or inter-city, any new highway in the GTA is going to be kindling for fueling new suburban sprawl.

Given that there is no real way one can predict growth patterns beyond a few years, let alone decades into the future, perhaps a MPC would turn out ok. Or perhaps it would be like every other highway in the GTA and attract suburban sprawl as fast as developers can build it. And given that the Peninsula is so desireable because of the escarpment, good weather (by Canadian standards), and its agricultural land, this will only ensure suburbia makes its way there like a pack of locusts ravaging the landscape.

It would be great to think that people finally get the environmental impact that sprawl has. Somehow, that really doesnt seem to be the case. I would hope that if a MPC was built, it would have severe restrictions on development in and around it. Somehow, I cant see that happening.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Afransen, The greenbelt has protected vast swaths of land in Niagara Region. The grape growing areas have additional levels of protection.

True, but most of the tender fruit lands are close to the Lake Ontario shore, below the escarpment (except around Welland). The new highway will run on top of the escarpment and outside the greenbelt.

 

[JohnnyStalenko]

"But if more commuters took public transit, that would free up our existings roads for use by transport. Building more roads just convinces more people that driving is the way to go, so they buy second cars and eschew transit. Soon those roads fill up, and we're right back where we started -- minus a few hundred million dollars, of course."

I agree completely with the above comment...to me when I hear people talk about a balanced approach to transportation, I think it's a joke...there hasn't been a balanced approach to transportation in almost any city in N. America, save of course maybe NYC, which actually has an extensive true 'alternative' to driving, which means giving people 'real' choice...

And b/c there hasn't been a balanced approach for most of us, I think it's time that transit gets a chance to 'catch up!'

And when are we going to realize that doing things that support sprawl (i.e. building more highways) is only furthering the problem of sprawl.

Sprawl is bad...simple enough idea, right...then instead of building more highways to accomodate the current sprawl and/or future sprawl, lets instead RE-design the current sprawl to make it more compact and do NOTHING to encourage new sprawl...in other words, lets not do more to cause more problems down the road...I mean, are we learning here or what!

All of this means to me that we have to HEAVILY invest in REDESIGNING our cities FIRST...designing them to support a backbone of subways, and dedicated intra-urban trains/transitways...

Otherwise, were only continuing with half measures...and that means we still 'don't get it'!!

So, no more roads, RE-design and HEAVY transit funding (and by the way, investing in transit doesn't mean giving all the money to GO again to support suburbanization in another form, but rather to invest in inner city development...

 

[GregWTravels]

Speaking of the Mid peninsula expressway - anyone know what's going on with that? There's a website with an EA ToR www.niagara-gta.com/ that said input was due by Dec of 2005. So, any news since then? (I wrote them today - I'll see if they respond).

I think the mid-pennisula would be a GREAT place for a passenger train from Toronto-Niagara. A train running from Union would pass both Lester B. Pearson AND John C. Munro in Hamilton. Golden Horseshoe Railways! Running Toronto and Tourists to the Casinos in Niagara. Buy a return ticket, otherwise you might not have enough to get home!

Plus, a train line there would be a good freight corridor too.