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Johnzz

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Well, come July 2010, new condos (priced over $400K) will be hit with an additional 8% sales tax. This will hurt...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090325.wPOLontbudget0325/BNStory/politics/home

The Ontario government has moved to douse a firestorm of criticism over its plans to reform the provincial sales tax by exempting a number of basic goods, including children's clothing, diapers and new homes costing less than $400,000. The government also proposes to help consumers adjust to the new regime by providing one-time compensation of $1,000 – in three equal payments over 12 months – to families with annual incomes of less than $160,000. Government sources confirmed last night that today's budget will include plans to harmonize the 8-per-cent provincial sales tax with the 5-per-cent federal goods and services tax. The sources also confirmed that the government is taking the sting out of harmonization for consumers by exempting from the new blended sales tax many household goods that are not currently subject to provincial sales taxes.

However, not everyone is happy. Newly built homes that cost more than $400,000 will be hit with higher taxes – as much as $46,676 in Toronto, according to one study – while the federal government has agreed to drop the GST for those under that threshold. Closing costs on all homes, including realtor fees, legal services and home inspections, will climb because they are not currently subject to provincial sales taxes. The Toronto Real Estate Board estimates that will add $2,037 to the purchase of a $360,000 home.

TREB spokesman Von Palmer called it a “double whammy†for Toronto, which introduced a land transfer tax last year.


“We're shocked at this. We're still reeling from the land transfer tax,†he said. “I think the last thing the home market needs right now is increased taxes on homes.â€

Premier Dalton McGuinty's government has been under siege over its plans to introduce tax reforms as part of a broader initiative to help the province's ailing economy. Constituents have flooded their MPPs' constituency offices with telephone calls, expressing fears that taxes would increase on basic goods that are currently exempt from Ontario sales tax. And opposition members have seized on harmonization as a new opportunity to label Mr. McGuinty a tax-raising promise breaker.

In fact, any doubt that the provincial budget will be delivered in an atmosphere of crisis and intense scrutiny was dispelled yesterday, when Finance Minister Dwight Duncan trod on tradition. He did not buy a new pair of shoes for presenting the budget, nor did he hold the usual pre-budget photo-op.

Mr. McGuinty has said his government would not pursue harmonization unless the Harper government agreed to drop the goods and services tax from household goods or provide compensation in the form of rebates for low-income households.

“We're going to have a budget that protects families and strengthens the economy,†he told reporters yesterday morning.

With the help of the federal government, it appears that Mr. McGuinty will be able to make good on that pledge. The federal government has agreed to exempt basic goods from the GST. The deal will also deliver multibillion dollars in compensation to Ontario, said sources familiar with the tentative accord signed by the two governments.

The compensation will be similar to what three of the Atlantic provinces received when they harmonized their taxes in 1997. The former Liberal government paid Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick $961-million.

A source also told The Globe and Mail that the government would put the blended tax in place before the 2011 provincial election. Businesses have been pushing for harmonization because it will make them more competitive by reducing their costs. They could receive a refund for taxes paid on goods and services to run their operations.

The federal government also plans to bring a bill to Parliament for approval, which could well be tricky for the federal Liberals. Voting for the blended tax might jeopardize federal Liberal popularity in the province, where it hopes to make large gains in the next election. By the same token, voting against the proposal could create tension between the federal and provincial wings. Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff has forged substantial ties with members of Mr. McGuinty's government.

The payoff for the federal government comes in the backing it gives Finance Minister Jim Flaherty as he presses other provinces to adopt a blended tax, something the government has been seeking since its election in 2006. British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Prince Edward Island have all resisted harmonization. Alberta has no provincial sales taxes.

Mr. Flaherty was tight-lipped about the harmonization idea yesterday. The minister, who has been criticized for saying the province was not a good place to invest, was asked if he now thinks the opposite.

“If you would like to ask me that question after they publish their budget,†he said, “I'd love to answer it.â€

Mr. Palmer of the TREB said the sales tax harmonization will disproportionately affect Toronto, where new detached homes seldom sell for under $400,000. It was unclear how the tax would be applied – if, for instance, on the sale of a new $500,000 home, the harmonized tax would apply to the full price, or only the $100,000 that exceeds the threshold.

If it applies to the full price, Mr. Palmer said one could expect a surge in listings for $399,999 to avoid the new tax.


“How will that distort the marketplace? People will realize that's the threshold,†he said.

Mr. Palmer cited a study estimating the harmonized tax will raise $313-million for the province in taxes on the closing costs of home sales alone.
 
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Great...just great...
 
The total tax for a new condo will increase to 17%! (13% HST + 4% Miller tax)

These are "nose bleed" levels... :eek:

"Kick a guy when he's down" springs to mind.
 
Those politicians probably have a swiss bank account.

I can see that the incentives of pushing this thru is that the politicians will have a 'huge bonuses' paid by the big companies.

Average Ontarians will suffer from paying higher taxes.
 
Someone purchasing real estate over 400k will more than likely have the funds
to pay for the additional taxes. If not, simply don't purchase a place for
that amount. I have no problem with McGuinty's decisions.

Respectfully,
Josef
 
Someone purchasing real estate over 400k will more than likely have the funds
to pay for the additional taxes. If not, simply don't purchase a place for
that amount. I have no problem with McGuinty's decisions.

As pointed out in the article, $400,000 is not a high price to pay for real estate in Toronto - it isn't correct to think that these are just high-rollers with coin to spare.

To "simply [not] purchase a place for that amount" is to effectively never purchase a place. The province is making it harder and harder for families to afford even modest real estate.
 
According to today's Star, the additional 8% doesn't kick in until $500,000; there would be a lesser amount at $400,000.

A problem with this, while adding a tax on a half-million dollar house/condo in Thunder Bay might be seen as simply a tax on the very rich, that in parts of Toronto, it's hard to find much under $500,000 (or at least it was 18 months ago). I'd think that the tax should also have an exemption based on square feet. So any $500,000 house/condo greater than ... oh, 1,500 square feet or something.
 
It really only applies to NEW construction over $400K ...

However, "closing costs on all homes, including realtor fees, legal services and home inspections, will climb because they are not currently subject to provincial sales taxes."


Johnzz said:
The total tax for a new condo will increase to 17%! (13% HST + 4% Miller tax)

umm, I don't believe that's correct ... unless you're counting the Provincial Land Transfer tax PLUS Toronto LLT as the 'Miller tax'?

Also, first time homebuyers are exempt from TLLT upto 400K threshold.

But I do believe the TLLT should be amended to apply only to any property resold in less than 1 year to prevent rampant speculation by flippers ... all others can get a refund in the next taxation year on their property taxes.

Part of the reason why RE is so expensive is flippers ... if prices followed typical appreciation levels, RE would be going for ~$325 PSF now.
 
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As pointed out in the article, $400,000 is not a high price to pay for real estate in Toronto - it isn't correct to think that these are just high-rollers with coin to spare.

It depends where you purchase in Toronto though. If your budget is in and around 400K, then perhaps you have to consider living near the outskirts of downtown Toronto. I really don't think it will make a negative impact. If the taxes applied to 300K and over, that would be crossing the line in the sand.
 
It really only applies to NEW construction over $400K ...

However, "closing costs on all homes, including realtor fees, legal services and home inspections, will climb because they are not currently subject to provincial sales taxes."




umm, I don't believe that's correct ... unless you're counting the Provincial Land Transfer tax PLUS Toronto LLT as the 'Miller tax'?

Also, first time homebuyers are exempt from TLLT upto 400K threshold.

But I do believe the TLLT should be amended to apply only to any property resold in less than 1 year to prevent rampant speculation by flippers ... all others can get a refund in the next taxation year on their property taxes.

i think this would just get flippers to reschedule to have close dates that meet the requirement. i'm not sure i would support any measures that would intentionally target flippers. i'm not sure if they are such a bad thing for a healthy re market. it's certainly not the way i would do re but i think they have a positive effect as they hire a tonne of trades, the city, lawyers and re agents love them for the fees and ltt.
 
i think this would just get flippers to reschedule to have close dates that meet the requirement. i'm not sure i would support any measures that would intentionally target flippers. i'm not sure if they are such a bad thing for a healthy re market. it's certainly not the way i would do re but i think they have a positive effect as they hire a tonne of trades, the city, lawyers and re agents love them for the fees and ltt.


Flippers could reschedule closing dates but they would be paying additional costs during the interim like mortgage payments and property taxes, etc.
Typically, the quicker they complete the construction and get the property relisted the better for them.

Any purchaser that buys a non-renovated property will typically hire trades to do the renovations so that's a moot point, and the city would get their permit fees, etc.

Part of the reason Toronto implimented the LTT was to limit flippers but it also penalized long-term users/investors.

If flippers are truly a small part of the market, then it wouldn't make much of a dent in the fees paid to lawyers and RE agents so what would be the objection?

IMO, a healthy RE market would function normally, but is only hyper-inflated by flippers.
 
Grandfather Clause?

Any word as to whether those of us who purchase prior to June, 2010 but who close after this date will be grandfathered. There will be hundreds of people who purchased a condo in excess of these amounts in 2007 or 2008 who expect to close in 2010 or 2011. Will we have to pay the new tax?
 
Flippers could reschedule closing dates but they would be paying additional costs during the interim like mortgage payments and property taxes, etc.
Typically, the quicker they complete the construction and get the property relisted the better for them.

Any purchaser that buys a non-renovated property will typically hire trades to do the renovations so that's a moot point, and the city would get their permit fees, etc.

Part of the reason Toronto implimented the LTT was to limit flippers but it also penalized long-term users/investors.

If flippers are truly a small part of the market, then it wouldn't make much of a dent in the fees paid to lawyers and RE agents so what would be the objection?

IMO, a healthy RE market would function normally, but is only hyper-inflated by flippers.

are you sure that was one of the reasons for the tltt? i have never seen that anywhere, it seemed like it was just a big cash grab.

i think flippers accounted for a large part of the market, but i guess that's all subjective.
 
I think this is good news.

The poor are spared, and the middle class and the rich pay equally.

Stop thinking in terms of me, me, me, and start thinking about what is best for the province and for other Canadians.

Yes, I hate paying taxes too, but I look at the bigger picture. The government needs money. Come up with the money now, or have future generations pay the interest.
 

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