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Sorry. You are correct on the $15B. I thought inflation was more than 2% over that period.

I do not know the magnitude of the downloads from the Province to the Municipalities in the 1990's - I am not denying that it did not occur. But I also do not know how much of the federal transfers to the Provinces from the 2000's were sent through to the Muncipalities.

There is also the fact that the deficit in 1995 was created by the previous government and the current deficit occurred under the current government.

The magnitude of downloading in the 1990s was very significant. It's a crux of how they balanced the books.

Plus, after all that the Tories still left a nice little deficit present for the next adminsitration when they left office.
 
And Doug Ford's dream of being wisked downtown by expressways - through which established neighbourhoods in Etiobicoke does he plan on bulldozing through? There was a reason why an expressway in the 70's was stopped
 
So building subways does not rip up streets? Tonight on Rogers tv there was Smelly Carroll and Joe Mihevc talking about transit. Very informative. Like Shelly said to the view that building underground does not rip up streets - go to Finch and keele and take a look. And the street is ripped up way longer with subways So how does this notion that underground does not rip up street come fro?. Its not like they build subways from underground. And misinformed people keep repeating the same thing.

The arguments they are expensive to maintain - LRT that is. Joe Mihevc says there is maintenance with subways and it costs more per km than surface LRT. They mentioned an LRT line in I thinks it was Australia that has been in operation for over 100 years and a train that still runs. It’s all about maintenance. And as they said Ford says one thing Mon-Wed-Fri and something else Tues-Thur. He says developers think its great and he leads us to believe that they will contribute money and then turns around and talks about casino and lotteries. The show repeats again tomorrow morning at 11am

The Fords call LRT fancy streetcars (when they are at surface) yet someone putting these fancy streetcars underground turns them into subways for them

As for maintenance of the Subway, today (Friday, March 2nd) there is this news from the TTC website:

Emergency switch replacement underway at Kipling. No train service Kipling to Islington until at least p.m. rush. Shuttle buses running.

We see maintenance of the Subway in sections all the time, that causes disruption in normal service.
 
What a moron Mammoliti is. I am quoting here "Mammoliti said his Finch-area constituents want a subway, and they’re willing to wait up to 50 years rather than accept surface rail." Who is going to wait 50 years. He does not speak for those residents. And how he plays up to Ford by saying to give the 1b earmarked for Finch to Sheppatd and that Finch can wait. The residenst of his ward should dunp him in the next election. I can;t wait to see how tries to explain wanting to give away 1B earmarked for Finch in the next election.

This is more evidence, I think, that the Right's ultimate goal is just to kill new public transit period. After they bury the Eglinton LRT and use of all of the 8.4 billion, they'll put off subway building indefinitely. If they do implement some superficial revenue generating scheme like a casino or lottery, it will just get diverted to support the city's operating budget next time they need to fill a deficit. In fact, the Right will probably just use it as an excuse to further cut property taxes.
 
I think you're reaching with that notion silence&motion. I don't think there are clear right / left dynamics on this issue. In some way right / left dynamics are reversed.

By the way, missing in the discussion is that right and left leaning factions are fighting over what transit proposals to pursue. The fact that all factions are championing transit expansion represents an astonishing level of consensus. We need to keeping in mind that many suburban stakeholders are anti-transit and strongly anti-transit in their neighbourhoods.
 
I think you're reaching with that notion silence&motion. I don't think there are clear right / left dynamics on this issue. In some way right / left dynamics are reversed.

By the way, missing in the discussion is that right and left leaning factions are fighting over what transit proposals to pursue. The fact that all factions are championing transit expansion represents an astonishing level of consensus. We need to keeping in mind that many suburban stakeholders are anti-transit and strongly anti-transit in their neighbourhoods.

Did you see Mark Towhey's public transit manifesto? It's not far fetched to say they want public transit dead and buried.
 
I think you're reaching with that notion silence&motion. I don't think there are clear right / left dynamics on this issue. In some way right / left dynamics are reversed.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Rob Ford's commitment to subways has nothing to do with personal or ideological support of public transportation and instead has everything to do with making sure public transportation in no way compromises automobile traffic or burdens taxpayers. The Ontario PC party has also demonstrated a clear preference of building automobile infrastructure over public transportation infrastructure by proposing a new 400-level highway in the last election.

It says a lot about the political climate in Toronto that Ford cannot simply come out and oppose Transit City without proposing something in its place. However what he seems to be doing is proposing an unrealistic alternative with no source of funding and time horizon so long that all of council will have retired before it ever comes to fruition. If his "plan" was to win out it would mean essentially canceling any current plans for transit expansion. Keep in mind as well that TTC service has been cut since Ford came to office.

Whatever Ford's public statements, his actions point to someone who is more interested in shrinking public transportation infrastructure than building it out.
 
In regards to the quotation you posted, when we have as much subway as Berlin and Shanghai maybe then we can talk.

My quotation was pointing at Hudak's rather silly motion to be tabled in the Ontario Parliament. Doubt it'll have much effect unless the NDP is overly refreshed on Tuesday.

For someone whose riding hails from the Niagara region I doubt he knows more than Council over what's best for Toronto.
 
Interesting thoughts on getting incentives right, although the context is one in which partial road pricing already exists (on NYC's bridges and tunnels):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/opinion/keller-meet-sam-schwartz.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

OP-ED COLUMNIST
Meet Sam Schwartz
By BILL KELLER
Published: March 4, 2012

IF you live in New York, commute to New York, or occasionally visit what Russell Shorto called the island at the center of the world, you have experienced the indignity of our city’s transportation hell. You have endured the screeching, flood-prone subways. You have surrendered exorbitant carfare to escape our eyesore airports, then lurched along congested highways, over creaking bridges and into our truck-clotted city streets. You have dodged the camping homeless at the Port Authority bus terminal, or wandered lost in the miasmal misery of Pennsylvania Station. New York City welcomes you with open arms — like the zombies in “The Walking Dead.”

Among the people who are paid to care about this stuff, there is often an air of defeat. Jurisdictional gridlock, warring constituencies, the death grip of private developers, shortages of vision, leadership, patience, attention and money — how can this list of impediments not leave you jaded?

Thankfully Michael Kimmelman is not yet jaded. In just a few months as the architecture critic of The New York Times, my friend Kimmelman has introduced an enlightening ethos of civic purpose into a genre that can be, at its worst, precious and narrow. Rather than review new structures as if they were gowns on the red carpet, he writes with infectious passion about how we inhabit our cities. He has written about making low-income housing less dehumanizing, about applying architectural intelligence to parking lots, about what makes a city pedestrian-friendly. In the process he has made me care in new ways about the public spaces many of us take for granted, or suffer in silence.

His most daring venture so far is to take on the defining but dauntingly complex problem of transit hubs. This is a category of public space in which a few triumphs, notably the glorious cosmopolitan cathedral that is Grand Central Terminal, serve as rebukes to some shameful blunders. Consider our Manhattan version of the Bridge to Nowhere: the new train station under the World Trade Center, an almost four-b-b-billion-dollar glass-and-steel vanity project that will serve a mere 60,000 riders.

In one provocative bit of advocacy, Kimmelman last month laid out a plan to fix Penn Station — probably the busiest transit hub in North America, and the one that most closely resembles a Roach Motel. He pointed out that the current, much-heralded plan to add a new train hub across Eighth Avenue (called Moynihan Station) will provide relief for only about 5 percent of the 600,000 people who pass through Penn daily. Kimmelman argued instead for opening up the station by relocating the Madison Square Garden arena that squats, toad-like, above it. There are reasons to regard this proposal as improbable, starting with the owners of Madison Square Garden, who are in the middle of renovating their venue. But at least Kimmelman’s provocation has accomplished its intended purpose of reopening an important conversation.

And this is exactly the right time to think ambitious thoughts about our city’s transit. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has done much to make the city more livable. On his watch New York transformed a defunct elevated rail bed into a delightful urban promenade, the High Line, completed some fine new parks and turned loving attention to our neglected waterfronts. But his third term is winding down, and the issue of our shameful transit system should surely figure in the campaign to replace him.

Meanwhile, after prolonged turmoil at the state level — four governors in five years — we have a shrewd, energetic and ambitious new chief executive, Andrew Cuomo, who ought to be looking for some signature projects. So far, Cuomo’s idea of a bold move is a scheme to have Malaysian gambling interests build a new convention center around the racetrack-and-slot-machine haven of Aqueduct, in an inaccessible corner of Queens. The plan may have some collateral payoff in Midtown, but I doubt that track-casinos — “racinos” is the term of art — are the sort of thing a prospective presidential candidate wants to hold up as his legacy.

I fear that Governor Cuomo, capable as he is, may be reluctant to throw his political capital into projects that will only bear fruit long after he expects to have moved to Pennsylvania Avenue. I set out among the ranks of city thinkers to find a project suited to Cuomo’s political skills and impatience, something that could lift New York in a major way in short order.

That’s how I stumbled upon the SoHo office of Sam Schwartz.

The great bureaucratic contraption that governs our city-in-motion is the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. It is the largest provider of public transportation in the Western Hemisphere. It represents a patchwork of constituencies, but is dominated by the governor. It is fueled by bridge and tunnel tolls, bus and rail fares and, lately, a lot of debt.

Samuel I. Schwartz, a transportation engineer and New Yorker to his kishkes, has spent 40 years — half government, half private — trying to make sense of the M.T.A. He can tell you how it rewards congestion, keeps subways and buses in a state of decrepitude, and breeds resentment. He can regale you with incentives that are utterly perverse. (He prefers “cockamamie.”) One example: If you are a five-axle trucker bound for New Jersey, you can skirt Manhattan, take the highway over the Verrazano-Narrows and pay a $70 truck toll; or you can drag your belching bulk across the narrow streets of Chinatown, TriBeCa and Little Italy — toll-free. Guess what most truckers do.) Time and again Schwartz has labored over attempted reforms — remember “congestion pricing”? — only to see them shot down because they put all the pain on the outlying car-centric suburbs, or because they ran into an antitax mood, or because people suspected the money would be siphoned off for other purposes.

Over the years he has gradually constructed a plan that is a Brooklyn boy’s gift to his city. (Literally. No client paid for it.) It wipes clean the slate, replaces it with a system of tolls and fares designed as incentives to minimize congestion in the central business district, ease circulation around the region and revive public transit.

You do not have to be an engineer to appreciate the logic. The scheme puts the heaviest onus on the solo driver who has ready access to a train, and lowers the cost for drivers who have no alternative. Unlike earlier plans that amounted to a punishing tax on commuters from outlying communities, the Schwartz plan has more affluent neighborhoods (like the plusher parts of Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens) pay a fair share. Though the main purpose is to underwrite public transport, the plan sets aside money to make the highways more bearable — in part so trucks will use them and avoid the populous business districts. Unlike plans that are all about cars and trains, Schwartz’s includes some lovely optional extras for the green at heart — graceful new bike-pedestrian bridges connecting the gentrified waterfront neighborhoods of Brooklyn, Queens and New Jersey to Manhattan.

Schwartz calculates that his system would bring an extra $1.2 billion a year to the M.T.A. — enough to raise the subways and buses back to first-world standards. The plan promises 35,000 permanent new jobs, a sharp drop in traffic, and for a majority of travelers an actual reduction in costs.

Over the past year or so Schwartz has gradually tested his PowerPoint slides on experts and politicians, including some of the fiercest skeptics of previous plans. He is working his way patiently toward prime time. He has not shown it yet to the governor or the mayor or the media. It’s about time for his phone to start ringing off the hook.

Oh, one other thing. Schwartz presented his slides to a major investment bank and was told the plan is so solid it could be the basis for a bond issue of up to $15 billion.

Who knows? With that kind of money, fixing Penn Station might not be such a fantasy after all.
 
Two great articles here, one by James at the Star, and the other reporting on some surprising support for road tolls:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ob-ford-made-our-transit-dreams-possible?bn=1

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1165636--car-commuters-would-pay-for-relief-poll

I think that we need to start pushing for this, because these revenue sources are needed sooner than later. And if we can direct the revenue from these funding sources to the DRL or to GO expansion, it would be even better. I think the days of the Province funding transit expansion exclusively from Provincial coffers are over.
 

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