innsertnamehere
Superstar
It's neptis, half their purpose is to simply disagree with everyone else it seems. That idea has had near universal rejection from most other people in the industry.
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- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I wish this idea would just die. I don't see any benefit for this at all for the people of Toronto. ML should act as a funder/co-ordinator of transit development in the region (basically what they've always done).
diminutive
Active Member
You run into a whole host of institutional problems when funding capacities are institutionally divorced from planning and operations capacities. I can see the logic of uploading the TTC's rapid transit arm to a regional body like Metrolinx. It would lead to a better alignment of resources and responsibilities. The flip side is it would be really difficult to figure out a revenue sharing model between local and rapid transit.
Just to give an example, look at most of the current Mayoral candidates. All of them make their own plans with the caveat, buried somewhere, that all of the above is contingent on negotiating with "partners" (aka Queens' Park & Ottawa) for 80-100% of the funding!. So they're not really responsible if anything goes wrong. And Queens' Park isn't responsible either since these are basically gifts to Toronto
The other solution would be to give the TTC/Toronto the taxing power to fund major capital works itself... Maybe like a 1% income tax?
Either way, transit funding and design/operations should happen at the same level of government.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Everyone in Toronto who read this took it in precisely the wrong way, which is as some sort of curtailing of their autonomy.
Quarmby did not advocate for Hudak's plan, he talked about the need to have transit co-ordinated through a single agency of some kind, just like they do in London. We love bitching about how New York and London and all these other cities have transit that's so much more amazing than ours but god forbid we actually learn from them. Maybe we should send Andy Byford down to New York to tell them what they really need is one transit system for Manhattan and then a patchwork of others for each of the boroughs and surrounding counties? And Steve Munro can then say, "The Long Island Railroad carries fewer people than the downtown subway so it's ridiculous to think that those people could understand our needs!" Obsolete thinking is what that is.
"If you’ve got integrated governance, then it means that the planning, the investment, the levels of service, the cost efficiencies are decided in one forum.” Heretic!
I don't advocate uploading, at least in Hudak's sense, but this just basic stuff: An effective transit agency has to cover the entire urban area. That's how it works in New York and London and Paris and, dare I say it, all the other actual world class cities where people aren't hung up on their own little fiefdoms. The TTC could not care less about anything 1 foot outside its borders and that's a problem when hundreds of thousands of people each day are moving back and forth across those borders. Metrolinx is totally ill equipped to this in its current incarnation; they'd need sustained funding and more legislative power to be anything like what they have in London but what we're fundamentally talking about is regional thinking.
So, what Quarmby said is beyond self-evident for anyone paying attention to the traffic and transportation problems in this region, but I'm not surprised that Toronto officials pounced on the notion this was really just someone trying to steal their cookies.
Right. And not one of them is talking about the fact that Toronto is within The Big Move and therefore its projects are part of it. Toronto keeps planning local projects with no care whatsoever for their regional impacts (though certainly the DRL fits that bill). They're all talking, as I just pointed out, as if Toronto is an island divorced from everything around it. Toronto is contiguous with everything around it and someone trying to get to work doesn't care if he's on TTC or MiWay or Zum or Viva; they just want to get there.
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Capital would be via Metrolinx' revenue tools. Toronto would need to re-balance the operating costs though, because the RT system helps subsidize some of the money-losing surface routes.
And yes, the formula for determining who's paying what would need to be hammered out for sure, I'm just showing a guideline here of how it could work.
Not exactly. IIRC, Hudak's plan was to upload the RT only, leaving local transit with the municipalities. The plan I described above would technically upload everything, but with Toronto keeping some control over how the money is spent on local routes.
Respectfully, I disagree. Here's the benefits that I see:
1) Uploading would likely come with a single zone fare system for the entire region. This, coupled with increased GO service, would be a huge relief on the subway system. Instead of people choosing to bus to Kipling or Finch or STC, they would be more likely to take GO instead, because the fares would likely be the same either way. This means there would be more room on the subway system for Torontonians.
2) Increases in GO service (and new GO stations in Toronto), and cheaper GO fares inside of Toronto would provide many more viable routes downtown for Torontonians, decreasing their reliance on the subway system to get anywhere.
3) For local transit, municipal boundaries would disappear. For anyone who lives in northern Scarborough and works in Markham, or lives in Etobicoke and works in Mississauga, this would be a huge advantage.
4) With the fare zone system, shorter trips would be less expensive. Yes, longer trips would be more expensive, but right now those are the ones that are requiring a larger subsidy per ride. And I honestly don't think the TTC will institute any type of a zone fare system as long as they exist, but Metrolinx probably would as part of a system covering the entire region.
Solid Snake
Active Member
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
So what you want is a single fare zone? This can be done without uploading the TTC to the province.
Anyways most of my resistance to this plan is because of diminished local influence over our local bus/streetcar/LRT/RT routes. That and I don't trust the provincial government to manage local transit, particularly under a PC government. I fear that they'll want to unilaterally privatize transit in the GTA, despite local opposition.
A single fare zone system, yes. If the TTC is a separate entity, working out fare breakdowns would be a logistical nightmare. At least if everything is under one roof, the distribution of funds would be a lot simpler. And I highly doubt the TTC would agree to a fare zone system on its own.
But if Metrolinx Toronto (in control of all bus and streetcar routes in Toronto) is still getting some of its funding from the City, and the whole purpose of that entity is to plan and deliver local service in Toronto, I would venture to say that the local influence would remain pretty much the same.
As for Metrolinx being at the whim of the Provincial government, what I'd like to see is some kind of agreement reached whereby the constituent municipalities control a majority stake in Metrolinx, that way the Province cannot make any unilateral changes. Eventually, if a regional GTHA government is established, I would like to see Metrolinx transferred 100% to them.
TOareaFan
Superstar
So, I guess, that budget leak document thingy from a few days ago was accurate and the Ontario Liberals will unveil their transit funding plan on April 14 as suggested:
TwitterConversation/exchange said:
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Its been largely accurate. A few things have been changed up since, but beyond a few tweaks its been correct.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
anyone excited for tomorrow? 
Glen Murray is making some Bike - related announcement at 8:30 apparently with Wynne making the full transit announcement at noon..
Glen Murray is making some Bike - related announcement at 8:30 apparently with Wynne making the full transit announcement at noon..
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
anyone excited for tomorrow?
Yeah, why not? But it better be good.
Adjei
Senior Member
Probably just another panel to further study it.
ehlow
Senior Member
Huge news! Spadina extension delayed another year
(or new transit taxes)