justindw
New Member
One assumes that going private does not preclude having a union, though, right?
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- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
One assumes that going private does not preclude having a union, though, right?
muller877
Senior Member
From link:
There are some people, like Mayor Tory and other Councillors, who think Toronto is a SMALL city. They ignore the percentages but look at the small dollar amounts as the target that Toronto should aim for. Toronto (TTC) is already the least subsidized transit agency, but that is not enough for them.
How much interest, "state of good repair" and capital costs (or amortization) are included in each for US cities? (need to make sure its $0 to compare it to Toronto).
muller877
Senior Member
That is true...the employees could unionize the private company. And probably a good thing as part of the bid for work as the TTC knows how long the agreement lasts before a potential strike (basically guaranteeing no strike during the duration of the contract). However, the private company needs to be competitive.
You'll eventually have 3 or 4 companies operating various portions of the TTC (each bus barn would be run with a separate contract and staggered bidding so they are not all bid on at the same time). So if one becomes uncompetitive (higher wages) the others will win the next round (and the employees are laid off).
...and the employees know that so even if unionized they do not have extravagant demands when negotiating
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The economies of scale argument is potentially problematical - see a more neutral look at the experiences:
http://www.pcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Privatizing-MTA.pdf
Recall the Viva strike?
AoD
http://www.pcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Privatizing-MTA.pdf
Recall the Viva strike?
AoD
pstogios
Senior Member
The elephants in the room are a) labour costs and b) management costs of the TTC.
Do we have any information about efficiency of labour dollars at the TTC?
Do we have any information about efficiency of management dollars spent at the TTC? This includes number of managers relative to requirements.
Why isn't annoying talking about those? That's where the efficiencies are to be found - and not just at the TTC, but the Toronto Police Services and other bloated municipal agencies.
If you think that there is no fat to cut in the TTC when it comes to labour and management costs, which is what Tory advocated for before becoming Mayor and should be no surprise now that he is Mayor, and that TTC is a completely efficient organization, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Do we have any information about efficiency of labour dollars at the TTC?
Do we have any information about efficiency of management dollars spent at the TTC? This includes number of managers relative to requirements.
Why isn't annoying talking about those? That's where the efficiencies are to be found - and not just at the TTC, but the Toronto Police Services and other bloated municipal agencies.
If you think that there is no fat to cut in the TTC when it comes to labour and management costs, which is what Tory advocated for before becoming Mayor and should be no surprise now that he is Mayor, and that TTC is a completely efficient organization, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Euphoria
Active Member
I actually don't think it matters whether private owner/operators pay their employees as much as the TTC (they won't because they don't need to, and they'll still be well paid jobs). And yes, they'll end up unionized. The challenge for the TTC is the age of its workforce and the decay of its infrastructure. It has baggage not unlike the STELCO pension baggage that US Steel has been trying to renege on honouring since they bought it. Those legacies should be honoured, but let's not unnecessarily expand the production of this losing proposition. Start fresh with a young workforce and some newbie owner/operators who are scared shitless of cost overruns and given short shrift in terms of subsidies (I think zero is a nice round number). As for the Toronto Police Services, half of their work involves security at concerts, sporting events, and similar bouncer-type gigs, so stop hiring police and start hiring cheap rent-a-cop security guards. I realize how over the top that last statement sounds, and yes I pulled it out of my ass, and yes it rings true.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
York Region uses private companies. They get subsidized to the tune of $4.44 per rider, compared with the TTC at 89¢.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Honestly. Flat fare really f*cks up the discussion on fare increases. The more disadvantaged and casual users who take the bus 5km to the grocery store or community centre are usually pissed by what they perceive as a disproportionate increase. This is why I would love to see fare reform. The current fare structure renders political discussion on transit and taxpayer support for transit, very, very challenging.
My personal preference would be a base fare for buses/lrt/streetcar, accompanied by some kind of distance based top-up charge on the subway system. The base fare provides access to the whole system. With the subway becoming a slightly premium service. Set the fares so that $3.25 gets your from STC to Union. Over time slowly increase the distance/zone based subway premiums. It will also help put suburban subway expansion in perspective.
My personal preference would be a base fare for buses/lrt/streetcar, accompanied by some kind of distance based top-up charge on the subway system. The base fare provides access to the whole system. With the subway becoming a slightly premium service. Set the fares so that $3.25 gets your from STC to Union. Over time slowly increase the distance/zone based subway premiums. It will also help put suburban subway expansion in perspective.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
doady
Senior Member
Canada is in the midst of a recession. Ontario lost thousands of jobs last month. That's the real reason for the ridership loss. All this talk of raising fares, cutting service, selling the TTC on TSX, etc., is just pointless and misguided. It doesn't fix to the root of the problem, that people are working less so they need to use transit less. To reduce the role of government - raising user fees, cutting services and laying off workers, privatization - seems like the exact opposite of what government should do during a recession. The TTC is not to blame for this recession, so I don't how basically destroying the TTC can be the solution.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Do we have job growth numbers specifically for Toronto? I'm asking because economic performance in this country is highly regional. It's not uncommon for Toronto and one or two other regions to show strong growth while the jobs elsewhere contracted, resulting in a net loss of jobs. National or provincial level job numbers aren't particularly helpful.
rbt
Senior Member
The employment survey gives annual numbers (2015 was a good year) but won't have a 2016 report available for some time.
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=c7ac186e20ee0410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD
Stats Canada has Ontario numbers on a monthly/quarterly basis but I don't see division smaller than that:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/indi02g-eng.htm
Royal Bank and TD both look bullish for Ontario economically in 2016 (June/July reports respectively):
http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/provincial-forecasts/ont.pdf
https://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/qef/ProvincialEconomicForecast_Jul2016.pdf
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pstogios
Senior Member
Here is data for the Toronto region.
From:
http://srv129.services.gc.ca/eiregions/eng/toronto.aspx?rates=1&period=335
That rise above 7% certainly could be responsible for the drop in TTC ridership.
From:
http://srv129.services.gc.ca/eiregions/eng/toronto.aspx?rates=1&period=335
That rise above 7% certainly could be responsible for the drop in TTC ridership.
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Jeff Morgan
Active Member
Free transit is an interesting idea. What is the source of revenue to pay for the transit?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I'm confused. This chart doesn't show Toronto's unemployment rising to 7% - it shows it dropping from 7.3% to 6.7% in July 2016.