[AlvinofDiaspar]

not saying she does or that it will work....but that is exactly what she has done today......killed something the city proposed but replaced it with something else that will generate income at the low end of the city initiative estimate....but timed the changes carefully so that while they kick in earlier than the city's initiative would...they won't kick in until after she is re-elected.

The problem is that it has brought absolutely nothing new to the table, other than a vague promise that is about as good as useless given where the provincial Liberal stands right now. So why should one be inclined to play nice when the probability of return is close to nil, and that it might be more useful to lever the other party instead?

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem is that it has brought absolutely nothing new to the table, other than a vague promise that is about as good as useless given where the provincial Liberal stands right now. So why should one be inclined to play nice when the probability of return is close to nil, and that it might be more useful to lever the other party instead?

AoD

I agree.....but what she has done is laid the groundwork for a fight over this issue.....Tory may convince Brown to promise to allow the tolls if he is elected in return for Tory/council backing the PCs....but that is a gamble.....I doubt two things with that strategy:

• if suburban public opinion is so anti-toll (as Wynne seems to be suggesting) will the PCs risk angering those voters and;
• I doubt that anger over rejecting tolls is enough to see the Liberals lose seats in the 416 to the PCs....and I think Brown would be aware of this.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree.....but what she has done is laid the groundwork for a fight over this issue.....Tory may convince Brown to promise to allow the tolls if he is elected in return for Tory/council backing the PCs....but that is a gamble.....I doubt two things with that strategy:

• if suburban public opinion is so anti-toll (as Wynne seems to be suggesting) will the PCs risk angering those voters and;
• I doubt that anger over rejecting tolls is enough to see the Liberals lose seats in the 416 to the PCs....and I think Brown would be aware of this.

Except I am not convinced JT himself is that pro-toll in the first place. He was consistently anti-toll historically and his base is logically anti-toll. It always sounded more to me like an attempt to extract concession from someone. From his perspective, I suspect doesn't matter what form of concession it is - maybe even uploading the highway and take it off the city's balance sheet. His base would love that for a multitude of reasons, and it'd be a winner for Brown (the 1B cost is like something you can slip anywhere, and it's for highways, which is a bread and butter issue)

AoD

 

[WislaHD]

Except I am not convinced JT himself is that pro-toll in the first place. He was consistently anti-toll historically and his base is logically anti-toll. It always sounded more to me like an attempt to extract concession from someone. From his perspective, I suspect doesn't matter what form of concession it is - maybe even uploading the highway and take it off the city's balance sheet. His base would love that for a multitude of reasons, and it'd be a winner for Brown (the 1B cost is like something you can slip anywhere)

AoD

If John Tory manages to upload the highways, then he deserves re-election on that alone.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If John Tory manages to upload the highways, then he deserves re-election on that alone.

I don't think that was ever that much of a problem should a Toronto mayor pushed for it. Like who would actually be against the idea other than downtown councillors? The only negative for the province is the cost/long-term liability, but that's peanuts for a government whose base isn't DT and have no trouble blowing a few B just to buy suburban votes anyways.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

If John Tory manages to upload the highways, then he deserves re-election on that alone.

Not sure that would (or should ) be popular with voters/citizens in Toronto....particularly those that would like to see parts/all of the road be dismantled/replaced....if it becomes a provincially owned highway you lose control.

 

[WislaHD]

I don't think that was ever that much of a problem should a Toronto mayor pushed for it. Like who would actually be against the idea other than downtown councillors? The only negative for the province is the cost/long-term liability, but that's peanuts for a government whose base isn't DT and have no trouble blowing a few B just to buy suburban votes anyways.

AoD

The municipality could fund the Scarborough Subway, or partially fund it's share of the DRL with the funds that would have gone to the Gardiner.

That is why I say it is so smart. Not being on the hook to pay the cost of the Gardiner/DVP means more money is available for transit.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Not sure that would (or should ) be popular with voters/citizens in Toronto....particularly those that would like to see parts/all of the road be dismantled/replaced....if it becomes a provincially owned highway you lose control.

That's only a DT concern (but really, who else are they going to vote for mayor next time?)- the inner burbs (NY, Etobicoke) would die for putting an end to that once and for all. The only thing that doesn't quite jive with my cynical interpretation is the political capital he put in this whole exercise. Maybe he is counting on people having short attention span?

The municipality could fund the Scarborough Subway, or partially fund it's share of the DRL with the funds that would have gone to the Gardiner.

That is why I say it is so smart. Not being on the hook to pay the cost of the Gardiner/DVP means more money is available for transit.

Ah, but "whose" transit? Freeing up 1B doesn't net you that much.

AoD

 

[Edward Skira]

Councillor Bailao <Councillor_Bailao@toronto.ca>
10:40 AM (10 minutes ago)

For Immediate Release

January 27, 2017

Statement from Councillor Ana Bailão, Toronto's Housing Advocate and Chair of the Affordable Housing Committee on the Province's decision to deny Toronto the regulatory approval for road tolls.

"Last month, the Mayor and City Council sent a very clear message to the Province. We came together as a mature order of government with a much needed plan to finance infrastructure projects in Toronto.

While doubling the gas tax contribution to Toronto is welcome, the Provincial government's disregard for local decision making is a troubling sign. The City could have raised up to $300 million a year by asking the people who use the Gardiner and DVP to pay their fair share with modest road tolls. This money would have went towards Toronto's transit and transportation needs, easing our financial pressures on other important capital needs such as our social housing repair backlog.

In 2013, the City put into action a 10-year plan to make $2.6 billion in repairs to Toronto Community Housing units – home to some of Ontario's most vulnerable residents. We requested that the Province commit to financing a 1/3 share alongside the City and federal government. By the end of 2017, the City will have allocated over $1 billion in making these much needed repairs and the Province has yet to pay its fair share.

Earlier this week, our Budget Committee approved a 15% increase in the City's operating subsidy to Toronto Community Housing. Toronto is taking strong steps to live up to these responsibilities but we cannot do it alone.

Since the Province has denied Toronto City Council the ability to control its finances, then I would expect that they would return to the table to address the profound housing responsibilities that have been downloaded onto Toronto taxpayers, and help address the housing crisis facing many of our nearly 3 million residents."

 

[TOareaFan]

https://twitter.com/CBCToronto/status/825011617884667904

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Tory was not "consistently" against tolls. He spoke for them very eloquently when he ran CivicAction. How soon we forget.

This region is really amazing, how it keeps booming despite decisions aimed at dragging it into the dirt. I can only imagine what kind of place it would be if Toronto had 3 per cent tax increases and the power (and will) to manage its financial affairs and if there was a provincial government with the guts to do what everyone knows needs doing.

In the meantime I guess I'll enjoy the ride, until we collapse under the weight of our own success.

 

[Cobra]

https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...ed-by-cabinet-caucus-to-retreat-on-tolls.html

While the suburbanites won the day, downtown Liberals are fuming.

One senior Grit confided that the toll retreat recalled the cancellation of gas-fired power plants by former premier Dalton McGuinty before the 2011 election.

“It’s the ‎same scenario, following opposition parties downward,” said an insider who requested anonymity in order to speak freely.

Can those downtown Liberals get more funding for projects like Waterfront LRT, Queen's Quay East to compensate their 905 colleagues getting their way?

Under t‎he new plan, the province’s $334.5 million in gas tax revenue earmarked this year for 99 municipalities will jump to $642 million in 2021-22.

Fair enough but in 2021-2222, Toronto should be getting HALF of that $642M annually

 

[TOareaFan]

Fair enough but in 2021-2222, Toronto should be getting HALF of that $642M annually

I don't think they will be far off of half...maybe even more than half.

If the increase is from $334.5MM to $642MM that means it is an increase of $307.5MM ....toronto is expecting $170MM in increase so 55% of the increase is expected to go to Toronto....is the ratio the same on the existing $334.5MM?

 

[Cobra]

I don't think they will be far off of half...maybe even more than half.

If the increase is from $334.5MM to $642MM that means it is an increase of $307.5MM ....toronto is expecting $170MM in increase so 55% of the increase is expected to go to Toronto....is the ratio the same on the existing $334.5MM?

So in theory, we're getting the money sooner than waiting for the tolls to be operational and by 2021 we get the right amount that should match the projected tolls revenues. Not so bad after all.

Instead of just 905 drivers being targeted to pay tolls, most of 905 drivers will be pitching in with the majority of the money going to Toronto... Not bad at all

 

[TOareaFan]

So in theory, we're getting the money sooner than waiting for the tolls to be operational and by 2021 we get the right amount that should match the projected tolls revenues. Not so bad after all.

Instead of just 905 drivers being targeted to pay tolls, most of 905 drivers will be pitching in with the majority of the money going to Toronto... Not bad at all

If what you/we are measuring is solely the revenue aspect of it sure, it looks like Toronto did ok....there are some (as you can read above) that see tolls as a "bettter" revenue tool going forward than gas taxes so there is that aspect of it.....also, since gas taxes are a provincial measure, there is always the risk/fear/possibility that future QP gov'ts can adjust it downwards whereas the tolls (if approved) were going to be a city measure and only they would have been able to reduce/eliminate them.

There also is the aspect of just controlling your own decisions......I personally prefer gas taxes over tolls...but even I think it is weird that the city has been granted tax powers in its act that no other city has...and there is a list of "revenue tools" that they are allowed to implement....this is one of them and it gets turned down....makes you wonder what the value of the act is really.

it leads to comments/tweets like this

https://twitter.com/mjrichardson_to/status/824951741481353218