adma
Superstar
Again, I think she's trying to be to the 2010 Toronto mayoral race what Martha Hall Findlay was to the 2006 Liberal federal leadership race...
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- Thread starter taal
- Start date
MetroMan
Senior Member
I presume your logic is: 1 bus = Minus 60 cars, therefore 1 bus does take away from traffic. This is of course true.
However, her argument does have merit. A fleet of 300 to 400 buses sitting in traffic, stopping at frequent intervals does add to traffic. An extensive subway network results in less vehicles on the road, both cars and buses.
urbandreamer
recession proof
^Really? Look at Tokyo or Manhattan--huge subway systems, yet still traffic chaos. I believe transit as a means to end the rule of the car is a rubbish theory. Really it's just a means to keep the poor poor.
MetroMan
Senior Member
^You're seriously comparing the populations of Manhattan and Tokyo to Toronto's?
Those cities outgrew the solution of subways long ago. They need a new solution or a appended solution. A city the size of Toronto could mostly solve its gridlock through efficient public transportation. There will always be people who cling to their cars no matter what, but a significant segment of the population would be happy to take transit if it were more efficient and pleasant than driving while continuing to be less expensive..
Those cities outgrew the solution of subways long ago. They need a new solution or a appended solution. A city the size of Toronto could mostly solve its gridlock through efficient public transportation. There will always be people who cling to their cars no matter what, but a significant segment of the population would be happy to take transit if it were more efficient and pleasant than driving while continuing to be less expensive..
urbandreamer
recession proof
^Look at Montreal. Bigger subway system, less population. Traffic still a mess.
MetroMan
Senior Member
More km's of subway doesn't mean a better public transit network. When you wait 10 minutes for a subway, sometimes it's easy to get lured into driving instead.
nfitz
Superstar
Hang on ... similiar sized subway system (with less capacity given smaller trains), and the area where the subway runs has a higher density than much of Toronto. Montreal's traffic problems tend to be related to the urban sprawl beyond where the Metro serves, and the bottle necks on the St. Lawrence and back river bridges.
Montreal's system also suffers from less frequency on the subway, and very infrequent buses, which discourages transit use from those who aren't walking distance to the Metro.
Fresh Start
Banned
Um...
"The Montreal metro system is currently Canada's longest subway system and the busiest in total daily passenger usage, serving an average of 989,000 daily passengers on an average weekday in 2009. In 2008, 291.6 million riders (transfers not included) used the Metro. According to the STM website the metro system has transported over 6 billion passengers as of 2006, roughly equivalent to the world's population. Montreal has built North America's most ambitious inner-city rapid transit scheme outside of Washington, D.C., serving the third-largest number of passengers overall behind New York and Mexico City and attracting the second-highest ridership per capita behind New York."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Metro
Toronto should be so lucky as Montrealers are to have reliable and affordable BRT, subways and commuter-rail practically everywhere one would want to go in the GMA, where the transit commission there are actively in the process of adding another 20 kilometres of metro. Viva le Thomson 2010!
Junction416
New Member
Um... Montreal does not have any operating BRT. They experiment with a BRT system but it ended following a tragic accident in 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_bus_rapid_transit) and it still hasn't reopened. And while the inner city transit is great it is less frequent then in Toronto especially at night. The metro closes at 12.30 during the week and at 1am on the weekend, where i've waited almost 15 minutes for a train, which is unheard of in Toronto. Also many parts of the island are under served so I would hardly argue that transit is good everywhere in the GMA. For example the West part of the Island is very under served, as is the South shore and Laval. Montreal is an island, lots of bottlenecks!
Fresh Start
Banned
Yeah, I don't see the TTC providing BRT service out to Pickering, York Region or Mississauga so I don't know why you feel that STM's obligated to provide such service to the various less-populated municipalities surrounding the City of Montreal including all those in West Island. Speaking of BRT, it is not limited to Pie Ix which is currently operational btw. There's dedicated bus-only ROW along numerous corridors: Cremazie, Henri Bourassa, Papineau, Rene Leveque, Cote des Neiges, Sherbroke Est, Boulevard Newman, Parc as well all-day express bus service along Autoroute 20 to the very tip of West Island. The BRT along Cote des Neiges and Parc have been so successful and so heavily rode on in fact that now the City's looking into upgrading these corridors to tramways. The metro closing an hour ahead of our's is no big deal. Whose financing them keeping the subway open an extra hour for a few thousand riders riding it at that time?
Point is, Montreal is a place that actually gets things done, keeps to its expansion promises and Toronto could stand to learn a lot from them.
Junction416
New Member
BRT on Cote-des-Neiges and Parc? Obviously you have no idea what a BRTs is. Reserving lanes for buses and taxis during rush hour is not BRT (http://tinyurl.com/27tsltc). It is also something that is done across Toronto, notably along Eglinton (Eglinton: http://tinyurl.com/2362rh7). Furthermore, Toronto's transit riders are financing the few extra hours, the TTC recovers 73.8% of its operating costs from the fairbox compared to the STM's 57.1%.
Point is neither system is all that great compared to the truly wonderful systems of the world. They suffer the shortcomings of most North American transit systems, low densities outside the core, unreliable funding, a car centric land use planning and development system and a lack of long term vision. If we really want to make public transportation worth it we need to change the way we build our cities, something both Toronto and Montreal could do much to improve upon.
P.S. Montreal has been about as successful as Toronto in expanding since the 1980s. The only real expansion has been to Laval, the equivalent of the Vaughan City Centre extension in Toronto. Since then plans to extend the Metro Pie-IX to Rivière des Prairies have been abandoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_7_White_(Montreal_Metro)) as have plans to extend the orange line north of Cote-Vertu. I hardly think that "Montreal is a place that actually gets things done, keeps to its expansion promises." Furthermore, adding a couple of station to existing lines is always much easier then building new lines which is what Toronto is trying to do along Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch, Jane, Scarborough and the Lakeshore.
nfitz
Superstar
It is however less frequent, especially off-peak, has smaller trains, and shorter service hours. And it's noticeable less busy off-peak.
Which does make one wonder how statistically it can have more passengers, given the length of the network, and number of stations is very similar; one of the agencies numbers is clearly not accurate! STM's own website BTW says 700,000, not 989,000.
Besides, I was also referring to the infrequent connecting bus network.
That Wikipedia page clearly has some inaccuracies.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Oh come on, Mtl's is clearly superior based solely on ratio of hot stylish well dressed women to men: Mtl 1, T-O.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
For Montreal vs Toronto numbers just look at page 34 of this report. http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q4_ridership_APTA.pdf
Doesn't have daily ridership numbers, but at least it requires reporting of the same stats - unlinked trips.
Doesn't have daily ridership numbers, but at least it requires reporting of the same stats - unlinked trips.
Mystic Point
Active Member
Check out this Smitherman video. He's doomed. This is portly Rob Ford's election to lose.
go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-GyaqKE74w&feature=related
go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-GyaqKE74w&feature=related