[Fac1]

Is there a new poll that's expected to be released today? Nanos?

 

[allabootmatt]

Pantalone is going nowhere I'm afraid. He needs to triple his support to even become a contender but that doesn't phase him with 11 days to go. His supporters need to pull a Mihevic and back Smitherman. If Joe pulled out, Mayor George would be assured. As it stands now, it all depends who's voters are more passionate and actually go to the polls.

I have been very disappointed by the tone of rhetoric coming from Joe and his campaign--notably the bizarre notion that George is not just 'as bad as' Ford but in fact worse because, the argument goes, he's competent and might actually implement his agenda. This is simply intellectually offensive. George is a gay, downtown-living, transit-riding progressive who is making noises about spending cuts because the times demand it and because the city could indeed stand to find some efficiencies. He isn't proposing ripping up streetcar tracks, nor Transit City. He has never suggested that arts groups and events like the Pride Parade be cut off from public funds. He is a passionate supporter of environmental causes and an advocate for Toronto's potential as a world leader in green industries. He has never, to my knowledge, told whole swathes of Torontonians that they don't count, or that they deserve to be killed, or that their lifestyle isn't acceptable to him.

Edit: hit send by accident. The other thing that bothers me is this idea that strategic voting is some kind of moral defeat. Elections--especially in our electoral system--aren't some kind of expression of Platonic ideals. Their results have a real impact on real people's lives, and frankly I don't see how in that reality one can do anything but choose the least-bad option that's electable.

George has run what's in many ways a classic Liberal campaign, with concessions to the tenor of the times built around core principles. I fail to see how that makes him anything like a guy who clearly doesn't get our city.

 

[MetroMan]

^^ Here here..

 

[Redroom Studios]

and here too!

 

[Glen]

I have been very disappointed by the tone of rhetoric coming from Joe and his campaign--notably the bizarre notion that George is not just 'as bad as' Ford but in fact worse because, the argument goes, he's competent and might actually implement his agenda. This is simply intellectually offensive. George is a gay, downtown-living, transit-riding progressive who is making noises about spending cuts because the times demand it and because the city could indeed stand to find some efficiencies. He isn't proposing ripping up streetcar tracks, nor Transit City. He has never suggested that arts groups and events like the Pride Parade be cut off from public funds. He is a passionate supporter of environmental causes and an advocate for Toronto's potential as a world leader in green industries.

There is some truth to what Joe is saying. But not for the reasons he is thinking. Since Mayor Miller was elected, spending has increased by 44%. We keep hearing that this is not wasteful spending but investments. I don't know about Miller, but I expect a return on my investments. Have services improved, no. Are we more prosperous, no. Is traffic better, no. Are our streets cleaner, no. Are overpriced hockey arenas, homeless shelters, LRTs, etc. investments, no. Is cleaning up the soil at Harbour Front to facilitate development, which will produce negative returns, an investment, no.

Calling reckless spending investments' does not make it so. George Smitherman is not the one to stop this. He has a history of making even worse 'investments'. Rob Ford is the only candidate that has been honest enough to call out the city on its wasteful spending.

In the end what Joe is saying is not that George is worse than Rob, but worse than himself.

 

[grey]

George Smitherman is not the one to stop this. He has a history of making even worse 'investments'.

Are you referrng to E-Health, which has churned out half a billion this year and is projected to generate a billion+ in savings each year?

 

[js97]

Are you referrng to E-Health, which has churned out half a billion this year and is projected to generate a billion+ in savings each year?

do you normally lie right through your key board like that?

'Electronic Health' has nothing to show... only thing to show is a massive bill from Tech firms like Accenture and the like...

The amount of money dropped into 'E-health'... did not equate to 'any returns... that's the point...
ontario still does not have an electronic health record system that is comprehensive - the original goal of e-health. .

that's the point....

 

[Coltaine79]

I have been very disappointed by the tone of rhetoric coming from Joe and his campaign--notably the bizarre notion that George is not just 'as bad as' Ford but in fact worse because, the argument goes, he's competent and might actually implement his agenda. This is simply intellectually offensive. George is a gay, downtown-living, transit-riding progressive who is making noises about spending cuts because the times demand it and because the city could indeed stand to find some efficiencies. He isn't proposing ripping up streetcar tracks, nor Transit City. He has never suggested that arts groups and events like the Pride Parade be cut off from public funds. He is a passionate supporter of environmental causes and an advocate for Toronto's potential as a world leader in green industries. He has never, to my knowledge, told whole swathes of Torontonians that they don't count, or that they deserve to be killed, or that their lifestyle isn't acceptable to him.

great post.

another plus for George (maybe not from you guys but anyways), due to his Prov Lib background (rather than NDP) we can expect him to do a little more for the suburbs than Miller or Pantalone. of course the prevalent narrative is that Ford is the best for the suburbs, but the reality is that he simply hails from the suburbs, and he's not going to do anything other than cut-cut-cut which hurts the suburbs just as much as downtown.

 

[GraphicMatt]

There is some truth to what Joe is saying. But not for the reasons he is thinking. Since Mayor Miller was elected, spending has increased by 44%. We keep hearing that this is not wasteful spending but investments. I don't know about Miller, but I expect a return on my investments. Have services improved, no. Are we more prosperous, no. Is traffic better, no. Are our streets cleaner, no. Are overpriced hockey arenas, homeless shelters, LRTs, etc. investments, no. Is cleaning up the soil at Harbour Front to facilitate development, which will produce negative returns, an investment, no.

(But surely many services HAVE improved?)

But, okay, you feel like the city has made bad investments. Is the solution, then, to make no investments at all? To just cut government revenue to the bone?

Be honest, Glen, would you vote for a big plywood sheet with "LOWER BUSINESS TAXES" on it? Doesn't it bother you that you're considering supporting a candidate that is clearly a few dozen IQ points below you?

 

[Roy G Biv]

Doesn't it bother you that you're considering supporting a candidate that is clearly a few dozen IQ points below you?

Should it? I think Glen could easily rationalize Ford as simply a vector for the policy he desires. What's wrong with that?

 

[taal]

There is some truth to what Joe is saying. But not for the reasons he is thinking. Since Mayor Miller was elected, spending has increased by 44%. We keep hearing that this is not wasteful spending but investments. I don't know about Miller, but I expect a return on my investments. Have services improved, no. Are we more prosperous, no. Is traffic better, no. Are our streets cleaner, no. Are overpriced hockey arenas, homeless shelters, LRTs, etc. investments, no. Is cleaning up the soil at Harbour Front to facilitate development, which will produce negative returns, an investment, no.

Calling reckless spending investments' does not make it so. George Smitherman is not the one to stop this. He has a history of making even worse 'investments'. Rob Ford is the only candidate that has been honest enough to call out the city on its wasteful spending.

In the end what Joe is saying is not that George is worse than Rob, but worse than himself.

While I agree with the sentiment of this post - I'm really not sure how Ford is the right person. Have you seen any of the debates at all ? Rossi had quite a bit more insightful things to say regarding the budget and wasteful spending. When Ford is asked by anyone how he plans on saving all he does, over and over, is refer to the spending the counselors are granted or how he'll cut back the size in half ... over and over and over ... things that will result in what? A couple million? Nothing significant whatsoever - if he had anything good to say I'd side with him in a second.

I think a key point here is the general everyday citizen likely had no idea about any of this - they wouldn't know how much higher our taxes are ... our services are fine (sure you can argue they haven't improved) this whole notion of wasteful spending has been spawned by the media (btw, I'm not say it isn't true, but the average citizen does not know that) ... they do not know the problems we currently face to to business tax rates and the like.

Instead, this whole notion of were spending to much comes completely from the media based on nothing - and that's all the average citizen goes on - and with that concluded we need to spend less to cut their own residential tax rates.

That's exactly the group Ford falls in. They don't understand the true issues and what can be done to remedied them. I'd take Smitherman over that - for another 4 years when hopefully we'll finally have someone insightful enough to understand the real issues.

 

[Glen]

(But surely many services HAVE improved?)

But, okay, you feel like the city has made bad investments. Is the solution, then, to make no investments at all? To just cut government revenue to the bone?

Be honest, Glen, would you vote for a big plywood sheet with "LOWER BUSINESS TAXES" on it? Doesn't it bother you that you're considering supporting a candidate that is clearly a few dozen IQ points below you?

I don't want to come across as a complete cynic. I like the idea of the 311 service paying attention to the aesthetic and utility of public space. But yes, I can't say that I am enthralled at any of the platforms I have heard. So Rob Ford doesn't see the whole picture. Who does? I don't, so I should not expect more of others. What worries me is when someone comes across as having all the answers. To me that signals an ideologue.

So he doesn't support the arts. For the most part, IMO, that should be a provincial or federal responsibility (here is a possible way). I like the idea of a city government being utilitarian and leaving the more ideological concerns for other levels of government. The ala carte program was an investment, and we all now how that on turned out. Sometimes the best thing a government can do is get out of the way.

 

[grey]

do you normally lie right through your key board like that?

'Electronic Health' has nothing to show... only thing to show is a massive bill from Tech firms like Accenture and the like...

The amount of money dropped into 'E-health'... did not equate to 'any returns... that's the point...
ontario still does not have an electronic health record system that is comprehensive - the original goal of e-health. .

that's the point....

Settle down, champ. It was just something I read. And since I can't find a link to back it up, I respectfully retract my comment.

It's just hilarious because eHealth = Obama's birth certificate, and the fact that it's not the colossal disaster many Ford supporters make it out to be removes one of the few legitimate non-bumblef*ck issues they have to stand on. I really just want it out of the debate to allow room for discussion of genuine, highly-concerning issues surrounding Smitherman, like some of the spooky policies he's adopted during the race in order to siphon away support from Ford, like reducing council representation to save money.

 

[Torontovibe]

The anti-Smitherman (Ford Horde) group always bring up 4 things, E-Health, prior drug use, sex changes on OHIP and him being gay. If the drug issue was such a big deal, why do they have no problem with Ford having drugs and his public drunkenness? They will say anything to justify their hypocrisy. They don't have much else to go on.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As far as I know, Smitherman is only proposing a 1-year tax freeze. Surely the surplus they are entering with this year should cover much of that. Year 2 might be a shocker though!

A tax freeze without a spending freeze is insane. If I freeze the revenue coming into my house but don't freeze or reduce my expenses, I'm financially screwed in short order. Tax freezes only work if you first reduce expenditures.