Admiral Beez
Superstar
I’m okay with that, to a measure. I’m sure the TPS only gave as good as they got, likely trying to start peacefully. I have no patience for vagrants or rioters taking over our public spaces with tents, shanties, etc.
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- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
Bjays92
Senior Member
Personal opinions on the protest aside, how do you police this? I fear this vehicle convoy protest tactic is opening a whole new can of worms.
People are easy to crowd control, and clear out, water cannons and tear gas are very effective at dispersing crowds (not that I support the usage of either) but vehicles are not only much harder to move, they make smaller movements take up way more space and far more disruptive.
Tear gas doesn't work on vehicles, road closures merely divert the gridlock they dont help resolve the issue since it leaves roads closed anyway, and towing hundreds maybe even thousands, of potentially heavyweight vehicles in total gridlock is not only challenging but creates a major security risk for the people actually towing.
This is a method that's proving to be exceedingly effective, so what's to prevent other groups from replicating it. You can't outright stop it before it starts because outlawing protests from the outset is an incredibly slippery slope, but once the people are locked in and overstay their welcome, how do you clear them out?
People are easy to crowd control, and clear out, water cannons and tear gas are very effective at dispersing crowds (not that I support the usage of either) but vehicles are not only much harder to move, they make smaller movements take up way more space and far more disruptive.
Tear gas doesn't work on vehicles, road closures merely divert the gridlock they dont help resolve the issue since it leaves roads closed anyway, and towing hundreds maybe even thousands, of potentially heavyweight vehicles in total gridlock is not only challenging but creates a major security risk for the people actually towing.
This is a method that's proving to be exceedingly effective, so what's to prevent other groups from replicating it. You can't outright stop it before it starts because outlawing protests from the outset is an incredibly slippery slope, but once the people are locked in and overstay their welcome, how do you clear them out?
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
With temperatures below freezing, the protectors would get a feeling what firefighters face when the water freezes their clothing on them.
gabe
Senior Member
Emergency vehicles have been slowed down by the protest. They are literally endangering lives.
Bayer
Senior Member
The slippery slope right now is the one that leads to lawlessness because we are more concerned about the "right" of a small number of people to wreak havoc than in preserving peace and order.
Many demonstrators are in Yorkville, which will no doubt make many wealthy people very annoyed. I am hoping this will ensure a quick end to this nonsense.
Many demonstrators are in Yorkville, which will no doubt make many wealthy people very annoyed. I am hoping this will ensure a quick end to this nonsense.
yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
I honestly do not understand these people. It’s times like these that I actually wish Covid could do us a favour and take out the trash.
It may seem harsh but today alone I’ve encountered way too many ultra-religious-MAGA-anti-vaccine whack jobs just about every where spewing their views. Plus a few teenagers who thought it would be cool to wear a swatstika armband over their jackets.
It may seem harsh but today alone I’ve encountered way too many ultra-religious-MAGA-anti-vaccine whack jobs just about every where spewing their views. Plus a few teenagers who thought it would be cool to wear a swatstika armband over their jackets.
Bjays92
Senior Member
I think your misinterpreting my argument. We should absolutely clear out an illegal protest, but I'm asking the question of how do we actually clear a protest like this, that's far more than just people.
Lawlessness should never be accepted, however we cannot ban peaceful demonstrations before the descend into lawlessness. Protesting is an inalienable right so long as it's peaceful. If we crack down on a protest before it even begins that is a genuine infringement of our rights and sets a precedent, so come a time when we inevitably actually need to protest something, we might not even be able to assemble because the government and police will be comfortable arresting people who havent broke any laws.
That is truly authoritarian, I've witnessed it firsthand in Hong Kong where authorities started arresting people as soon as they arrive at a scheduled protest site, in spite of being peaceful. They'd arrest anyone and every, including passersbyers and that is something I can never support or condone no matter how vehemently I agree or disagree with a movement.
Also wishing death on someone is never, ever ok. These people are still people, no matter how unhinged their views may be. Many of them have families, including young kids, plenty of them are vaccinated (though obviously rallies like this attract a disproportionate amount of unvaccinated) people who dont share far right and alt right views should know better than to attend an event like this, but to paint them all with on brush is unfair and by degrading them to less than human, how are we any better than them or their ideologies?
Bayer
Senior Member
Just enforcing current regulations would be desirable. Ticket and tow illegally parked vehicles; enforce noise regulations. Don't allow a time-limited demonstration to become an occupation as it has in Ottawa. And definitely less hand-wringing about the precious human rights of demonstrators and more about those who are the victims of their harassment.
ShonTron
Moderator
Though it was never going to be as dangerous or as massive as the protest-turned-siege of Ottawa, I have to hand it to the Toronto Police Service for once.
With the far right using trucks to weaponize their protests, the city’s response was to weaponize the city’s traffic against them. The Gardiner and partial DVP closures, with the wide perimeter around the Legislature and University Avenue, helped protect health care workers and kept the trucks far back.
With the far right using trucks to weaponize their protests, the city’s response was to weaponize the city’s traffic against them. The Gardiner and partial DVP closures, with the wide perimeter around the Legislature and University Avenue, helped protect health care workers and kept the trucks far back.
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
What human rights are they asking for? This really seems more an exercise of the entitled demanding more entitlement. That's not a right, it's a privilege. So I am not even sure we need to balk at the hang-wringing at all, when it's not even on the table. They've exercised their free speech and right to free assembly mostly with impunity. Time for their entitled behiney's to move on or be forced to answer for their actions, IMO.
...so I agree impart, but not with the human rights thing. As I am not seeing that as a thing here at all.
Jonny5
Senior Member
The Ottawa Police look utterly incompetent right now. Everything took them by surprise, despite a week of warning, they apparently naver had, and still don't have any plan at all for what to do day-to-day, nevermind ultimately removing the process, but even the simple day-to-day work is being decided on the fly by the individual on the ground officers with no central command support to coordinate their efforts.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Gridlock used for good instead of evil; I like it.
I think one thing Toronto had going for it was the precedent of Ottawa. Both cities have a history of people, truck, tractors, etc. descending on them vowing to 'shut the place down', which generally turn out to be a one-day event with some noise and speeches. Seeing what has transpired in Ottawa, coupled with knowing the difficulty of dispersal, they opted to prevent. Also, they probably estimated that they would have general public support to prevent 'that'.
Northern Light
Superstar
Sooo.....
I don't wear any tinfoil hats..........
But I'm also not naive about how security/police services sometimes operate.
I have a friend who observed some of the protests yesterday downtown.......
Took note with appropriate disgust when they saw one with a confederate flag........though also made note....when that same person a bit later no longer had said flag and was jovially talking with local police.
I have the impression that there are some planted trouble makers.
Can't be certain; but certainly looks suspect; and would not be entirely out of the ordinary.
****
To be clear, I think there are many genuine trouble makers; and several plain kooks in with this protest lot; but I wouldn't put it past some in authority to see if
they can rouse more trouble than might otherwise occur.
I don't wear any tinfoil hats..........
But I'm also not naive about how security/police services sometimes operate.
I have a friend who observed some of the protests yesterday downtown.......
Took note with appropriate disgust when they saw one with a confederate flag........though also made note....when that same person a bit later no longer had said flag and was jovially talking with local police.
I have the impression that there are some planted trouble makers.
Can't be certain; but certainly looks suspect; and would not be entirely out of the ordinary.
****
To be clear, I think there are many genuine trouble makers; and several plain kooks in with this protest lot; but I wouldn't put it past some in authority to see if
they can rouse more trouble than might otherwise occur.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Considering the "coziness" some members of the local police have with the viewpoints of the protesters, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the other way around.
AoD
APTA-2048
Senior Member
I agree. It's not surprising. There are accounts of police taking selfies and high fiving protesters in Ottawa.