[kkgg7]

This is just silly. Why exactly don't buses count? Because they don't come frequently? That can be fixed. In London, more people take buses than take the tube. If you give the buses their own lanes without congestion, and have them come frequently, they become a viable mode of transportation.

Toronto is not that special, and its problems are not that different from those in other cities.

True. I find the only street car i can consistently count on is the 510.
501 is extremely unpredictable, sometime you have to wait 20 minutes. The Wellesley bus doesn't seem ever come when you need it. I still believe cars should not be allowed on Queen/Dundas West between Yonge and Spadina or Bathurst to address the 501/505 delay problem. These drivers can easily use Richmond/Adelaide and College st.

 

[kkgg7]

The biggest source of congestion by far is the home-work commute. It's unrealistic to expect that families use transit for all types of trips. Home-work trips are the easiest kind to switch over to transit, because a lot of the destinations are in similar locations (i.e. downtown).

The idea with peak hour road tolling is to get people to change THAT behaviour is particular, because that is when our system is most stressed. Taking kids to hockey at 7am on a Saturday morning doesn't really stress the system that much, nor does going to visit Grandma on Tuesday evening.

Rush hour is when the most people are on the road. It's also the time when there's the greatest opportunity to take people OFF the road. Price it accordingly.

agree with every word you say. However, in reality, you have to price it really aggressively in order to really deter commuters from driving to work by making it so expensive that it sounds a stupid idea to drive on the south bound DVP at 8am. It might be politically hard to do it.
$15 per trip into downtown between 7 and 10 am is a good start. $300 should be big enough to discourage a significant of drivers. Anything lower might not work effectively.

 

[rbt]

$15 per trip into downtown between 7 and 10 am is a good start. $300 should be big enough to discourage a significant of drivers. Anything lower might not work effectively.

I expect setting it equal to two transit trips ($2.50 * 2) would make a significant impact simply by reminding people it is an issue. Nobody really cares about 20 cents for bags when they buy $100 in groceries; it's the constant reminder that makes their behaviour change.

A small decrease in congestion could greatly improve transit trip speed which would help significantly.

It would take a large $20/day fee to raise capital to fund something like a DRL and even then it would be a very large timeframe.

 

[mpd618]

However, in reality, you have to price it really aggressively in order to really deter commuters from driving to work by making it so expensive that it sounds a stupid idea to drive on the south bound DVP at 8am.

I don't agree that the pricing has to be really aggressive, actually. If it's clearly seen that a toll is in effect, I think there would be a large drop in demand just by going from a free road to a nominal toll. Driving is by no means free, but it feels that way. Tolls (and parking costs) break that, and make drivers reconsider their options.

 

[spider]

I am curious how many of the posters on this thread are actually personally impacted by congestion on roads outside of the city core as opposed to folks who just see "congestion" as a sort of generic evil to be kvetched about on principle. So many poster's solutions include punishing drivers with large tolls 24/7 when the problem is only serious in rush hour makes me wonder if they drive at all.

 

[ssiguy2]

Road tolls don't work.
All they do is shift traffic from one street to another. Infact, they also lead to slower transit speeds as traffic from ie the Gardiner would decrease slightly due to a toll but much of that traffic would simply take Lakeshore. You are shifting traffic from a freeway to a local road which impeads transit vehicles and makes for a less pedestrian friendly urban enviornment. The same scenario would also play out on the DVP/Bayview.
Mileage consumption taxes don't work either. They look good on paper but what happens when Mom and dad take the kids to Disneyland on March break? Does that mean when they get back the TTC sends them a bills for $200?
A regional gas tax is the only way to fund transit and help reduce congestion and Toronto congestion will still continue to get worse as the population grows and so especially does the downtown core.
Gas taxes regionally is simple................the more you drive, the more you pay. No one gets "hit" because they happen to live along the Gardiner instead of the 401. It is distance based, costs very little to implement, and can bedone regionally.
A regional Metrolinx gas tax. The only other option is a regional sales tax which many US cities have brought forward resulting in large expansions of their transit systems over the past 20 years.

 

[kkgg7]

I expect setting it equal to two transit trips ($2.50 * 2) would make a significant impact simply by reminding people it is an issue. Nobody really cares about 20 cents for bags when they buy $100 in groceries; it's the constant reminder that makes their behaviour change.

A small decrease in congestion could greatly improve transit trip speed which would help significantly.

It would take a large $20/day fee to raise capital to fund something like a DRL and even then it would be a very large timeframe.

It is unrealistic to expect normal people to care about congestion, the environment and something as frivolous as "climate change". If it doesn't hurt the wallet badly, they won't change their habit.
Remember a car can take you to exactly the place you want to be, no change of bus, no standing in the cold/rain/snow. While public transit doesn't provide that comfort. Plus, if it costs $5 to make a return trip, two or more people will still prefer the car as it is basically nothing if share among them. If it takes $8 to go somewhere by car and $5 by bus, I will still definitely drive myself, even just by myself. Not to mention people with companies and bags etc.

 

[kkgg7]

I am curious how many of the posters on this thread are actually personally impacted by congestion on roads outside of the city core as opposed to folks who just see "congestion" as a sort of generic evil to be kvetched about on principle. So many poster's solutions include punishing drivers with large tolls 24/7 when the problem is only serious in rush hour makes me wonder if they drive at all.

you are assuming congestion is the only negative result from too many cars on the roads.

 

[salmonz]

There seems to be a range of debates in just one thread. Just to point out a few:
1. Downtown relief line
2. Downtown congestion
3. 401 congestion
4. Tolling one area to improve another - i.e. let's toll the 401 to get better transit downtown Toronto.
5. Peak period congestion

Ok, so my opinion:
1. We need to move people faster and cheaper than the car.
- Raising the cost of driving is NOT the way to do it.
- Use economies of scale. Operating a bus shouldn't cost more than the total cost of running car for each of the people sitting on that bus. Then what's the point of the bus???
- The reason why people TTC (Take The Car) is because it's faster and cheaper than transit. Make transit faster and cheaper and then start talking. If you're making it slower and more expensive, you're doing something wrong.
2. We need region to region transit. Not downtown Toronto oriented transit.
- Consider the traffic along the 401. Busiest highway in North America. Why isn't there a high speed transit line parallel to the 401? Make it $2/day. Have frequent LRT service to employment areas off this high speed rail line.
3. We need to move goods faster. Trucks can't take transit.
- Split the roads into truck traffic and passenger traffic. If I wanted to start a shipping company in the GTA, I would have to be admitted into the hospital because there's no way you'll make money transporting goods at 15km/hr. for basically half of the daylight time. (the night time could be as unpredictable due to road maintenance and closures)
4. We need to embrace all modes of transportation.
- So what will happen if we all stop buying cars? The automotive industry we just bailed out will need another bailout. the argument of "let the auto makers build buses" has long passed because the bailout period what a time for them to switch and the government should have taken a bigger role in making that happen.
- We need high speed rail going across the entire region similar to the Lakeshore line but we need several parallel routes.
- We need to start thinking of LRT lines in developing communities before it's too expensive to build them and have direct paths to urban centres and medium/high density housing areas.
- We need to reward those who choose mixed modes of transport. i.e. free parking if you take your car and bring your bike, i.e. 401/Yonge, and bike the rest of the way.
5. Knock down the political barriers. Just make one transit system coordinated by the Province (since there's no official multi-municipal government body in the GTHA).
6. Stop knocking on car drivers. They pay for more than their fair share. Usually it's the car drivers that don't have a choice but to take their car because either transit is so damn expensive/slow/out of the way for them to use, they use their car.
7. Stop the focus on downtown Toronto. Did I say stop the focus on downtown Toronto? There's congestion in Brampton, Mississauga, Oakville, and even Milton (the 401 sucks at 8am through Milton)!! These areas are probably worse than downtown Toronto during rush hour.
8. Don't artificially make the car more expensive because you want people to use a poor transit system. That's just cruel (def: willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.). The fact of the matter is you'll get 100,000 people paying $20/day in taxes and just more of the same we're planning to build the taj mahal in 20 years and that day will never come, people will get frustrated, vote the government out, $20/day removed, and back to square one but with angry people and 3x more congestion.

 

[mpd618]

It is unrealistic to expect normal people to care about congestion.... If it doesn't hurt the wallet badly, they won't change their habit.

What? Commuting in congested traffic is pretty much the worst thing. There's even research to that effect.

6. Stop knocking on car drivers. They pay for more than their fair share. Usually it's the car drivers that don't have a choice but to take their car because either transit is so damn expensive/slow/out of the way for them to use, they use their car.

There's nothing fair about the high costs of road infrastructure, but that doesn't mean everyone should be subsidizing other people's long drives on scarce roadways. Drivers by no means pay their fair share of the infrastructure in Ontario, and the longer their commute, the more they are being subsidized through federal and provincial taxes, and through property taxes.

Making driving more expensive would disproportionately affect places that are more car-dependent, particularly those built in the golden age of the car -- roughly between 1950 and 2000. These are more spread out and more difficult to serve with good transit. (It can be done, but it's a chicken-and-egg problem, as you also need the ridership to support increased frequencies of service.) But the thing is, those places also, per capita, cost the public the most in terms of infrastructure. It may not be "fair" to start making it more expensive to live and drive in that kind of suburb, but it's more fair than having compact places subsidizing sprawl and maintaining the incentives to build more of it.

 

[kkgg7]

What? Commuting in congested traffic is pretty much the worst thing. There's even research to that effect.

What I meant was, drivers don't really care about the congestion they are causing, and think: oh I should drive less to make things better. Only by charging them heavily can make them change that mindset.
Of course they are affected by congestion, but they would not drive less to reduce it.

 

[mpd618]

What I meant was, drivers don't really care about the congestion they are causing, and think: oh I should drive less the make things better. Only by charging them heavily can make them change that mindset.
Of course they are affected by congestion, but they would not drive less to reduce it.

I agree. Solutions that are based on how people "should" make a different decision to benefit everyone else... are generally not solutions. People's decisions are not random but mostly a result of the available choices and their perceived needs. You have to change the facts on the ground to affect the decisions people make. Change the relative competitiveness of travel modes by time or cost, reduce barriers to entry, etc.

 

[rocker]

I'm for congestion charges if the resulting money is put back into alternatives to taking the car. If the money goes to pay off the city's budget shortfall or something, then forget it.

I've lived in Mississauga near a GO Station all my life. I like the GO (when it's not packed to the gills). When I was studying at Ryerson I took the GO regularly, despite owning a car, because I recognized that the gas cost and parking fees + the congestion made it less economical than just walking across the street, paying the GO fare. I could be downtown without the stress of traffic and the high cost of gas and parking. But I had the alternative right in front of me, an alternative that was relatively comfortable.

So implement tolls, take the money and improve alternatives for those very same people. Then they don't feel squeezed. And they may actually come to like taking those alternatives.

 

[ItsTehBean]

Is HOT lanes are better alternative to congestion charge?

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1082292--hot-lanes-gain-popularity

 

[spider]

FWIW, I drove down the 404 from Aurora to York Mills Rd today at 3:45 - 4:00 PM. Much of the trip was made at 115 KMH including a stretch of 5 KM or so shared with an OPP cruiser and several trucks. The HOV lanes at the south end of the trip were sparsely populated and slower than the regular lanes, which moved through the usually congested 401 interchange at the speed limit. Probably not a typical trip but it happened.