[gweed123]

I would imagine it would be within the city's right to impose a parking tax on privately-owned parking lots in the downtown right? I mean, the city taxes different land uses differently, so why not tax parking lots in their own separate tax bracket (I'm thinking specifically of surface lot parking)? Raise Green P parking rates and on-street parking rates at the same time so these parking lots don't go out of business. Increasing the cost of parking is a much more financially viable (and politically feasible) alternative to road tolling.

However, I think before we start doing these things, there needs to be some kind of new transit infrastructure in place (I would prefer SOS' Backbone Plan, www.saveoursubways.ca, but I'm biased in that regard, haha). If we start raising parking rates while still maintaining the status quo on transit, the money could just be seen as lining the pockets of the transit union. Get some new lines up and running and THEN say "ok, we've built a couple new lines, but we can't build more without new sources of funding. Therefore, we're going to raise parking rates to help pay for Phase II of transit expansion." I think then that way people can see the direct link and see that things are actually getting done with the money that was supposed to go to that cause.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Saying "we need more transit before we can do X" is crazy ridiculous at this point. We need more money before we can build transit.

You could implement new taxes in such a way that the money they generate does not fall into general revenue, and instead goes specifically to transit capital projects.

 

[ssiguy2]

If its tolls then it should be all roads including locals coming into Toronto. If you just toll the Gardiner and the DVP then you are, in effect, taxing downtown and subsidizing the rest of the 416.
Inside Toronto increase all parking taxes including those at malls, plazas etc. Gas taxes are very effective and encourages people to drive less and also get more people buying fuel efficient cars. All of this should NEVER be done unless it goes straight to the TTC and not general city coffers. God knows if the Board of Education ever got a hold of the money it would vanish over night. This is what the heavy Translink tolls/gas taxes do.............the money goes straight to Translink not the cities, metro, or province..

 

[sixrings]

I agree with a gas tax inside of toronto.. and TOLLS at every major entry point into TORONTO. Seems pretty simple to impliment.

 

[gweed123]

Saying "we need more transit before we can do X" is crazy ridiculous at this point. We need more money before we can build transit.

You could implement new taxes in such a way that the money they generate does not fall into general revenue, and instead goes specifically to transit capital projects.

Not really. A lot of the skepticism with funding going to transit is that the public perception is that nothing has changed, that Toronto is in a perpetual state of 'looking forward to implementing the next major transit plan', without anything ever actually getting done. If you're going to make it more difficult or more expensive for people to drive, there needs to be a corresponding increase in the level of transit service. In otherwords, Phase I projects need to open up at the same time that these parking increases are being administered, so there's a direct correlation in people's minds. And the Phase I money is already there, it's the Phase II money that is lacking, and where we need to get creative in finding alternative funding sources.

And unfortunately, taxes don't really work that way, at least not at the Provincial level. The money all goes into one big pot, and is divided up according to needs. For example, the gas tax doesn't actually go to repairing roads and building transit, it goes into a common pot, and X% of that pot goes to repairing roads and building transit. An increase in X% in the gas tax or road tolls doesn't necessarily equate to an X% increase in funding for transit expansion.

 

[TOareaFan]

Not really. A lot of the skepticism with funding going to transit is that the public perception is that nothing has changed, that Toronto is in a perpetual state of 'looking forward to implementing the next major transit plan', without anything ever actually getting done. If you're going to make it more difficult or more expensive for people to drive, there needs to be a corresponding increase in the level of transit service. In otherwords, Phase I projects need to open up at the same time that these parking increases are being administered, so there's a direct correlation in people's minds. And the Phase I money is already there, it's the Phase II money that is lacking, and where we need to get creative in finding alternative funding sources.

And unfortunately, taxes don't really work that way, at least not at the Provincial level. The money all goes into one big pot, and is divided up according to needs. For example, the gas tax doesn't actually go to repairing roads and building transit, it goes into a common pot, and X% of that pot goes to repairing roads and building transit. An increase in X% in the gas tax or road tolls doesn't necessarily equate to an X% increase in funding for transit expansion.

Add to that how un-even the transit infrastrucutre improvements have been.

So tolling everybody in the 905 who feels they need to drive into downtown does not account, as an example, for the disparity of service that has been developed (for whatever reason) between, say, the Lakeshore W line and the Milton line. So while it might be someone's opinion that drivers from, say, Oakville are making a choice to drive nothwithstanding the regular and frequent and everyday train service they have...you can't say the same about the person in Meadowvale. That person in Meadowvale might also be a bit skeptical that those tolls will be used to give him/her that same level of service or they might just be used to give that Oakville commuter 30 minute frequencies 7 days a week and he/she could be left with the choice of limited service rail or driving and paying tolls.

None of the questions, nor answers, are as black and white as we like to paint them.

 

[Fresh Start]

And unfortunately, taxes don't really work that way, at least not at the Provincial level. The money all goes into one big pot, and is divided up according to needs. For example, the gas tax doesn't actually go to repairing roads and building transit, it goes into a common pot, and X% of that pot goes to repairing roads and building transit. An increase in X% in the gas tax or road tolls doesn't necessarily equate to an X% increase in funding for transit expansion.

That's not exactly true. The province of Ontario put the money for TYSSE into a trust account years ago. So specific pet projects can get guaranteed funding. However we cannot afford to rest on our laurels anymore. We need a political champion to act on the 416's behalf like Sorbara did, who sees subways as the only lasting solution. The municipal contribution to transit project funding has to be beefed up, whether it stems from taxes, fees, tolls or a combination of all three. If Toronto buys into its own future, no other city has the right to complain. But now is the best time to act while its widely acceptable by the public that times are bad and it takes a continuous cash flow to keep public services up and running. If we wait around for the economy to fully recover, it'll be a tougher sell by then.

 

[TOareaFan]

That's not exactly true. The province of Ontario put the money for TYSSE into a trust account years ago. So specific pet projects can get guaranteed funding. However we cannot afford to rest on our laurels anymore. We need a political champion to act on the 416's behalf like Sorbara did, who sees subways as the only lasting solution. The municipal contribution to transit project funding has to be beefed up, whether it stems from taxes, fees, tolls or a combination of all three. If Toronto buys into its own future, no other city has the right to complain. But now is the best time to act while its widely acceptable by the public that times are bad and it takes a continuous cash flow to keep public services up and running. If we wait around for the economy to fully recover, it'll be a tougher sell by then.

Let's be clear/balanced/fair....Sorbara "championed" subways as long as they happened to go to Vaughan......can you show us where he championed other subways? Any thoughts on why he championed Vaughan subways?

 

[Rainforest]

So tolling everybody in the 905 who feels they need to drive into downtown does not account, as an example, for the disparity of service that has been developed (for whatever reason) between, say, the Lakeshore W line and the Milton line. So while it might be someone's opinion that drivers from, say, Oakville are making a choice to drive nothwithstanding the regular and frequent and everyday train service they have...you can't say the same about the person in Meadowvale. That person in Meadowvale might also be a bit skeptical that those tolls will be used to give him/her that same level of service or they might just be used to give that Oakville commuter 30 minute frequencies 7 days a week and he/she could be left with the choice of limited service rail or driving and paying tolls.

Same can be said about the income tax. People with same income (and same deductions) pay exactly same income tax, but the quality of public services they get in exchange is not identical. Some people leave near a hospital / good school / subway station / frequent bus route, others do not.

Designing an absolutely fair transit tax system is impossible. Nevertheless, it is necessary to create a dedicated revenue source for transit expansion, for such expansion to ever take place. Otherwise, transit will always lose to health care, education etc.

 

[TOareaFan]

Same can be said about the income tax. People with same income (and same deductions) pay exactly same income tax, but the quality of public services they get in exchange is not identical. Some people leave near a hospital / good school / subway station / frequent bus route, others do not.

Designing an absolutely fair transit tax system is impossible. Nevertheless, it is necessary to create a dedicated revenue source for transit expansion, for such expansion to ever take place. Otherwise, transit will always lose to health care, education etc.

total fairness is impossible but this just smacks of "ok the folks in Oakville {to use an example} have transit so it is now ok to toll all of the other roads"

Maybe what we need to do is put micro-chips in our license plates that determine where we live and if you live, say, within 10km of a stop on an full service route but then choose to drive youi pay "X"cents per kilometre on the roads......if you live between 10 and 20 km of a stop on a full service route then the toll drops to, say, 50% of X and so on and so on.

It just seems inherently wrong to build transit for so few of the 905ers out of general tax revenue then tell all others that to get improvements to their transit they are going to have to pay tolls.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc...s-signal-green-light-for-transit-city#article

 

[Fresh Start]

do those numbers account for the same vehicle travelling the same highway twice or more and/or travel on multiple highways? if you charged a flat rate per day, because the total "unique" vehicle number would differ from the total you provided, it would change your revenue figure.

is it "1,905,030" in unique vehicles?

if not, it's safe to say that the number would be at least cut in half due to round trips. then you can reduce the number even further if the same car travels on more than one of those listed roads per day. multiple trips would reduce the number even further. you also need to account for drivers who avoid those roads because they don't want to pay the toll which would reduce the figure even more.

the only way to achieve that 3.5 billion dollar figure would be to toll $5 per listed road per use.

I'm not saying that 1.9 million unique drivers would be total fined on every outing, but if a vehicle is caught on surveillence using the highway system more than twice per day, that vehicle-owner would only have to pay a maximum of $10/day whether they only use the one stretch of road or several. But the plan can only work if all the highways are tolled equally 8 hours per day (6AM-10AM; 3PM-7PM) as to dissuade overcrowding onto "free" roadways. I think that the toll is better than say raising downtown parking fees as they're already too high IMO. People have just got to get behind the idea that the tolls would be temporary and would be pinged to ongoing public transit construction. It sends the message to motorists that if they want to escape the tolls, use public transit; and it puts pressure on the TTC/Metrolinx to stick to tight project completion schedules. No more waiting for guaranteed funding from higher gov'ts to even push a shovel into the ground. If even half the number that I've projected here is generated on an annual basis ($1.75 billion, over 80% the amount that was needed to build 19kms of RAV metro), there's no reason to further delay and will give the private sector incentive to partner into PAYGO projects as fiscal budgeting restraint and transparency would be a requirement for all parties involved.

 

[Fresh Start]

Let's be clear/balanced/fair....Sorbara "championed" subways as long as they happened to go to Vaughan......can you show us where he championed other subways? Any thoughts on why he championed Vaughan subways?

Holy crap. I meant that we need the equivalent of someone like Greg Sorbara to do for metro 416 what he did for hydro fields in Vaughan. I personally think that north of York U this is an utter waste of funds, but at least Vaughan had the political will necessary to fight for its interests.

 

[TOareaFan]

Holy crap. I meant that we need the equivalent of someone like Greg Sorbara to do for metro 416 what he did for hydro fields in Vaughan. I personally think that north of York U this is an utter waste of funds, but at least Vaughan had the political will necessary to fight for its interests.

whoah...sorry...I read your comment ("We need a political champion to act on the 416's behalf like Sorbara did") wongly...oops.

 

[Dan416]

Transit definitely needs its own revenue stream. Clearly the provinces general revenues aren't sufficient and are vulnerable to the mood of the day. We need various small taxes introduced which individually won't be overly noticed (e.g. 1% Transit Sales Tax) and small road tolls ($3 or equal to a TTC fare) and parking taxes.