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As an aside to those who keep arguing that Ontario government wages are too high: Ontario's per capita program spending is the lowest in the country.

Sure, there are some flashy execs who make too much, but on the whole our government services are efficiently delivered and recent wage agreements have seen close to 0% increases for most employees.
 
I keep saying this. I wish the Liberals had sucked it up and just raised the HST 2% as Harper was cutting back. That would have given them the revenue needed. No trying to find sneaky ways to raise revenue like this non-neutral cap and trade.

Not like they didn't try to at least consider: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...t_hike_to_fund_public_transit_in_ontario.html

Now that old government is out, perhaps it is time to dust off that proposal again. As to cap and trade - it should be used to fund energy, not gen rev.

AoD
 
A 100 percent transit fund from any HST increase -- 0.5 percent, 1 percent -- and yes, even 2 percent, sure, as long as DRL subway gets going, gets built and also Hamilton gets 15min GO RER train service.
 
As an aside to those who keep arguing that Ontario government wages are too high: Ontario's per capita program spending is the lowest in the country.

Benefitting from scale does not by any measure absolve Queen's Park of its management responsibilities.

Consider, for example, how McGuinty bought "peace" with the teachers with generous raises, only to have them now threaten strikes again. This is for a profession with a huge surplus of trainees awaiting jobs. Was that payoff effective? What was the opportunity cost of that money?

I don't think many of us begrudge more government spending after the Harris years. We do question, how effective that spending was. And there's a real risk to this government, if the general public starts doing the same. And decides it's had enough.

I want this government to be fiscally responsible in no small measure because I have serious doubts that a future PC government will not savage issues that this forum cares about (transit and infrastructure). And I fear that the stench of irresponsibility and poor stewardship will sink them. Wynne has absolutely terrible approval ratings. That portends some serious challenges in 2018.
 
A 100 percent transit fund from any HST increase -- 0.5 percent, 1 percent -- and yes, even 2 percent, sure, as long as DRL subway gets going, gets built and also Hamilton gets 15min GO RER train service.

I'd have been happy with a pledge that 100% of cap-and-trade funds will be used on public transit projects....to reduce emissions after all.
 
I'd have been happy with a pledge that 100% of cap-and-trade funds will be used on public transit projects....to reduce emissions after all.

I'd be up for that too. That could be the stable source of revenue that Metrolinx needs in order to de-couple from the political process.
 
As an aside to those who keep arguing that Ontario government wages are too high: Ontario's per capita program spending is the lowest in the country.

Sure, there are some flashy execs who make too much, but on the whole our government services are efficiently delivered and recent wage agreements have seen close to 0% increases for most employees.

There's also the fact that you have to pay execs generously to be able to compete with private sector execs.

Suppose I'm someone capable of being a manager. If the private sector will pay me $300k/year, but the public sector will only pay me $100k/year, then I'm going to try and work for the private sector if I can! Every applicant is going to try the private sector posting first, and the good ones will get the private sector jobs.. and the government will be left with those who the private sector employer rejected, in other words, the bottom of the barrel.

The constant populist rage against "well paid flashy execs" and the resulting cuts to their salaries is a big part of the reason why government is so much less efficient and so much more blundering than private business.
 
There's also the fact that you have to pay execs generously to be able to compete with private sector execs.

Suppose I'm someone capable of being a manager. If the private sector will pay me $300k/year, but the public sector will only pay me $100k/year, then I'm going to try and work for the private sector if I can! Every applicant is going to try the private sector posting first, and the good ones will get the private sector jobs.. and the government will be left with those who the private sector employer rejected, in other words, the bottom of the barrel.

The constant populist rage against "well paid flashy execs" and the resulting cuts to their salaries is a big part of the reason why government is so much less efficient and so much more blundering than private business.

Most public sector employees aren't executives or even highly skilled professionals. Quite a few of them get high wages, simply because of extensive union protection backed by a virtually inexhaustible revenue source (the taxpayer).

I'm in the air force. When I got posted to Ottawa as a newly trained Lieutenant with 2 years of training and a 4 year undergraduate degree in aerospace e engineering, I discovered the section's admin assistant with high school and 5 years experience made more than me. The portion of the project I covered was worth at least $200 million. And failure of that system in the field could result in lives lost (airborne sensors and comms for a search and rescue platform).

Working with intelligence analysts, I later found out that they were in the same union as the admin assistants. The latter group actively fought the reclassification of the intelligence analysts (all of whom had MAs as a minimum), because their inclusion in the same group or bargaining unit, improved the odds of the admin assistants getting better raises.

What I learned about the public service from my experience? Professional staff are usually underpaid compared to industry. Their benefits and vacation make up for the disparity. Support staff, on the other hand, get pay and benefits significantly beyond what any of them would in industry. And that's not something the public is really blind towards.

Or let's talk about teachers. You have hoardes of young people who can't get jobs because the long tenure staff won't retire. There's no real threat of performance based dismissal unless you're atrocious. 11 weeks of vacation in total. Six figure salary at the top end. One of the best pension plans in the country. Now, I'm not one that is opposed to paying good teachers well (and I've dated one and married one) but it's hard to argue that we reward good teachers well, as opposed to providing a really lucrative public service career for people who probably wouldn't make as much in the private sector. For what we pay teachers, I would expect standards on par with the Finns (all teachers have MEd with very strong mentorship and training programs). Is it that hard to understand why the public might get peeved when teachers threaten strikes?

Now, overall, much of the wage disparity is simply owing to the collapse of the unionisation and the rise of freelancing in the private sector. However, that's just not going to reassure the public that public sector wages and wage increases are justified, when their wages are stagnant and they have to pay higher taxes to support those wages, benefits and increases far beyond anything they can hope to receive.
 
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The higher level executives are dramatically underpaid compared to private sector standards, yet they're the ones the populist "OMG TAXPAYER DOLLARS" rage harps on about.

You're very correct in that it's the support staff and lower level people who are the overpaid ones.
 
Or let's talk about teachers. You have hoardes of young people who can't get jobs because the long tenure staff won't retire. There's no real threat of performance based dismissal unless you're atrocious. 11 weeks of vacation in total. Six figure salary at the top end. One of the best pension plans in the country. Now, I'm not one that is opposed to paying good teachers well (and I've dated one and married one) but it's hard to argue that we reward good teachers well, as opposed to providing a really lucrative public service career for people who probably wouldn't make as much in the private sector. For what we pay teachers, I would expect standards on par with the Finns (all teachers have MEd with very strong mentorship and training programs). Is it that hard to understand why the public might get peeved when teachers threaten strikes?

Very familiar with the teachers situation as both my sister and partner are new young teachers.

Young people can't get jobs mainly because for many years there were FAR too many people being graduated from teachers colleges, which only ended recently (in 2014 the government stepped in and forced universities to cut enrollment in education degree programs). Even if every person eligible to retire did so tomorrow, there'd still be far too many young teachers unable to get positions.

One benefit of this whole thing though, is that with so many more teachers available than postings, only the really good ones are getting jobs now. With school boards getting over twenty applications for each open post, they can nitpick the very best candidates. All the new teachers being hired now are cream of the crop.

It also means the government can actually achieve long dreamed about representation goals. Namely, the government for many years now has wanted to fix gender imbalances by having more male teachers in Kindergarten and Grades 1-3 classrooms, and more female math and science teachers in secondary schools. With so many applicants to choose from now moving forward on these goals while still hiring mostly by merit is now possible.

It's expected that there will be an oversupply of qualified teachers until the mid 2020s (that's how long it will take for boomer retirements and B.Ed program cuts to catch up!), and for every year from now until then, we'll see very high quality in new teachers.
 
The higher level executives are dramatically underpaid compared to private sector standards, yet they're the ones the populist "OMG TAXPAYER DOLLARS" rage harps on about.

You're very correct in that it's the support staff and lower level people who are the overpaid ones.

Absolutely. And some here will scream, "OMG capitalist pig wants to cut wages." But how can we in good conscience tell admin workers getting paid $10-$15k less, while also getting less vacation, no pension and little to no benefits to support wage increases for their public sector counterparts in perpetuity?

Sooner or later, the public will backlash and elect another Mike Harris type.

As for teachers, nothing of what you've said should fill the public with confidence. We're paying a workforce which does not meet the government's own requirements. And they're going to take a decade to solve the problem. Makes it quite easy for any incoming government, to lower the magic number and force retirements. I could even see the NDP doing that.

Wages and compensation need to be in line with the private sector. There public sector has traditionally made up for lower pay with job security, vacation time and benefits. But now, there public sector is also better paid and benefits outstrip anything comparable in the private sector for a lot of jobs (especially support workers). Not a situation I see the public tolerating for very long.
 
The problem, it seems to me, is pensions... we have public sector workers retiring at 55 at 100% (or close to it) of their top wage. People live into their 90's now; that means that the provincial and municipal governments are paying thousands of people six figures to do nothing for 40 years. I'm all for paying our public sector employees a (more than) living wage, but you don't need 120k/year to exist as a retiree. What's even worse is that many continue to work as consultants on top of their massive pensions, and thus are not truly retired.

I think it's a shame that private sector unions have largely disappeared. That's where labourers need bargaining power. Unfortunately, we have a situation in this province in which public sector unions are taking advantage of an employer that can never go broke, and we are ALL paying for it. I am as leftist as they come, but even I can see that the current situation is not sustainable.
 
The problem, it seems to me, is pensions... we have public sector workers retiring at 55 at 100% (or close to it) of their top wage. People live into their 90's now; that means that the provincial and municipal governments are paying thousands of people six figures to do nothing for 40 years. I'm all for paying our public sector employees a (more than) living wage, but you don't need 120k/year to exist as a retiree. What's even worse is that many continue to work as consultants on top of their massive pensions, and thus are not truly retired.
I don't think the average public sector retiree is making $120k for 40 years. You're exaggerating here. Also, public sector employees pay a hefty amount into their own pensions.
 
As an aside to those who keep arguing that Ontario government wages are too high: Ontario's per capita program spending is the lowest in the country.

Sure, there are some flashy execs who make too much, but on the whole our government services are efficiently delivered and recent wage agreements have seen close to 0% increases for most employees.

I would say it is stupid policy to impose 0% salary increase to government employees. I hardly see that as some sort of achievement. Public sector needs to be competitive and attractive to the right talents too, just like the private sector. To use the government employees as the scapegoat every time to please voters is missing the point. Our problem is not the wages are too high, but that there are too many government employees many don't have enough work to do.
 
The higher level executives are dramatically underpaid compared to private sector standards, yet they're the ones the populist "OMG TAXPAYER DOLLARS" rage harps on about.

You're very correct in that it's the support staff and lower level people who are the overpaid ones.

very true.
Within the Ontario government, an assistant deputy minister is typical paid only about twice as a regular staff 4 levels under him. The pay scale is simply too flat, with too many over paid supporting staff doing little. What's worse, it is almost impossible to fire a public sector employee unless he does something criminal. Being highly incompetent is hardly a good enough reason.
 

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