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lenaitch said:
You might be right about the SMM-Sudbury corridor but I have to see numbers to be convinced. I know a few families who live in the Soo and I'd be surprised if they ever had a need to go to Sudbury. A lot of the traffic may well be between the Soo and communities as far east as Elliott Lake and then from the Massey area east to Sudbury. Same with TBay-Wpg, simply because of the distance, although there might be more of a business travel case.

I'm not sure I get the relationship with Canadian. West of Sudbury, the two routes go in completely different directions and serve different catchment areas. Sending the proposed train west out of Sudbury would actually require VIA to abandon part of the mandated remote service route on CP.

Both ACR and HCR might be getting public funds, but I doubt it is sufficient to upgrade the ROW to a point of reasonable passenger speed. I don't know the terms of the funding (if there are any), but I suspect in HCR's case, the goal is more likely to get the track speed for 15 to 40 mph. I don't think the government's can argue 'we give you money so you must support a passenger train'. Something as simple as no w/b to n/b connection in the Soo would need to be installed. In ACR's case, the tour train is just that. It trundles along at sightseeing speed to Agawa, turns around and comes back. It makes no scheduled or flag stops.

A FN group is trying to revive the Soo-Hearst passenger train, which might actually work against a new VIA service (how many passenger trains does one need between Soo and Franz?). A similar argument could be made for the NB-Toronto leg. ONTC is proposing daily service. What would a two or three day alternative service bring to the table? With a milk run like proposed, I can't see the schedule being very consistent.

I honestly think any talk of additional VIA service outside of possibly southern Ontario and maybe Calgary-Edmonton probably belongs on a fantasy page. Don't get me wrong; I'd love to see passenger trains running hither and yon, but there has to be either an economic basis or public subsidies that are willing to continually pour money into it. I get the concept of induced demand, that if a reasonable alternative exists some people might use it, but you need a critical mass of people travelling from A to B in the first place.
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Go to page 22. Highway 17, it shows about 5000 AADT. I know a lot of it is truck traffic, but still, it may be enough to support a train 2-3x a week.

Air Canada and Porter fly to SSM from Toronto each day. AC has 2 flights,, and Porter has 1 a day. They seem to fly 78 passenger planes. So, that is about 250 people each way a day that might think of a train if it was reasonable enough.

As a side note, I took the Agawa Canyon Tour train this fall. The line was in reasonable condition and the train was doing about 40mph(70km/hr) both way. While I would love to see speeds of 90mph, I'd be happy with 50-60mph as that would be about the same speed as the highway they follow.

I know all of this is fantasy, however, when someone brings it up, I like to talk of options that might be viable. I don't think this would be coming back before something out west comes back. There just isn't any money to do anything.
 
It depends on whether those 250 people would be willing to spend a day getting there instead of an hour and a half.
It's been an awfully long time since I rode the Soo sub (the last time was in a jigger/motor car, so I'm really dating myself) but I doubt the alignment in a lot of areas would support those kind of speeds.

This conversation really belongs in the General Railway Discussions page.
 
lenaitch said:
It depends on whether those 250 people would be willing to spend a day getting there instead of an hour and a half.
It's been an awfully long time since I rode the Soo sub (the last time was in a jigger/motor car, so I'm really dating myself) but I doubt the alignment in a lot of areas would support those kind of speeds.

This conversation really belongs in the General Railway Discussions page.
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The alignment is not the issue. The ties and track condition is the issue.

Regardless, At this point, even the return of the Northlander feels like it is a fantasy.
 
micheal_can said:
When they bring back the Northlander, could this be part of it?
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Or, maybe North Bay region passengers heading to Toronto could *not* be obligated to travel on ancient relics pulled by smoky Tier 0 locomotives when almost every other passenger service into the GTA will be on modern rolling stock with Tier 2 or better in the lead?
 
dowlingm said:
Or, maybe North Bay region passengers heading to Toronto could *not* be obligated to travel on ancient relics pulled by smoky Tier 0 locomotives when almost every other passenger service into the GTA will be on modern rolling stock with Tier 2 or better in the lead?
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I mean the coach. I most certainly do not think we should use old locos. However, it is most likely they will use one of their "newer" engines instead of something brand new. It would be nice to get one of the MPs from GO. instead of any existing locos ONR has.
 
Wonder what the Northland train update was (posted today).

Screenshot_2022-12-13_142446.jpg
 
News release just landed in my inbox:

NEWS RELEASE

Ontario Taking Next Steps to Bring Back Northeastern Passenger Rail​

Province investing in new rail cars as part of its plan to connect communities and unlock economic opportunities in the north
December 15, 2022
Ministry of Transportation
NORTH BAY – The Ontario government is purchasing three new trainsets as part of its plan to bring back northeastern passenger rail service. The $139.5 million investment marks a significant milestone in reinstating service between Timmins and Toronto, and unlocking the full economic potential of northern industries, resources and minerals.

“This is a significant step forward in bringing back the rail service that northerners deserve,” said Stan Cho, Associate Minister of Transportation. “The reinstated Northlander train will support our northern industries and resource sectors and provide a safe and reliable transportation option for Northern communities, especially in the winter months. This purchase demonstrates real progress, as we continue to take concrete steps to build a better transportation network for the north.”

The new rail cars will be built by Siemens Mobility Limited and will meet the latest EPA Tier 4 emission standards, making them one of the most environmentally friendly diesel locomotives on the market. The fully accessible fleet will include built-in wheelchair lifts, mobility aid storage spaces, galley style food services and fully accessible washrooms.

“People and businesses in Northern Ontario rely on a safe, convenient transportation network to get where they need to go and to keep our goods moving,” said Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation. “The reinstatement of passenger rail service will ensure access to essential services like health care and education, while supporting economic prosperity and tourism in the region.”

The trainset interiors will also feature spacious seating and modern amenities, including Wi-Fi connectivity and passenger information systems with audio and visual announcements.

Once reinstated, northeastern passenger rail service will be offered from four to seven days a week, based on seasonal travel demands.

Quick Facts​

  • Ontario Northland Transportation Commission’s Northlander Passenger Train discontinued service in 2012.
  • Ontario Northland currently operates four buses daily between Toronto and North Bay, and one to two buses daily from North Bay to Timmins and Cochrane.
  • In April 2022 Ontario Northland Transportation Commission released the Updated Initial Business Case which included a preferred route from Toronto to Timmins with a rail connection to Cochrane.
  • Cochrane will provide a connection to Polar Bear Express service to Moosonee.
  • By 2041, annual ridership is currently estimated to be between approximately 40,000 and 60,000.
  • Detailed design will focus on the route that includes 16 stops: Toronto (Union Station), Langstaff, Gormley, Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, South River, North Bay, Temagami, Temiskaming Shores, Englehart, Kirkland Lake (Swastika), Matheson, Timmins and Cochrane.
  • The new locomotives will meet EPA Tier 4 emissions standards and are equipped with particle filters reducing 95% of particles and 89% of Nitrogen Oxide emissions.

Quotes​

"This purchase is a key next step to support the Province and Ontario Northland's target of a mid-2020s in-service date for reinstating Northeastern Passenger Rail. The rail service will provide passengers more access to safe, reliable transportation options when traveling between Northern Ontario and Toronto."
- Chad Evans
Interim President and CEO of Ontario Northland Transportation Commission

"As part of our plan to build Ontario, our government is proud to be making this investment to help bring the Northlander back to the North. Passenger rail supports families, tourism, manufacturing jobs, innovation and economic growth, all while keeping the people of Ontario connected. As the long-time voice for this vital service, it's an absolute pleasure be part of a government that is bringing passenger rail back to Northern Ontario, once and for all."
- Vic Fedeli
Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade, and MPP for Nipissing

"Our government recognizes how important it is for Northerners to have reliable and convenient transportation options. We know that when people and goods can move freely, communities prosper. I am confident that today's investment will result in better economic and health outcomes for residents across the North and I feel that this signals true progress to returning services which should have never been discontinued."
- Greg Rickford
Minister of Indigenous Affairs, Minister of Northern Development, and MPP for Kenora – Rainy River

"This is a great next step for the future of rail transit in Northern Ontario. The return of the Northlander train will directly benefit communities in Parry Sound-Muskoka with four convenient stops, allowing people more options to get home, to work, to medical appointments and to experience the beauty of the North."
- Graydon Smith
Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry, and MPP for Parry Sound-Muskoka

"The people of Timmins and northern Ontario are ecstatic about our government bringing back the Northlander rail that was discontinued in 2012. These communities need another affordable transportation option that connects them to the rest of the province and provides access to goods and services in other regions. This is an essential transportation corridor in northern Ontario that supports the entire economy because the movement of people and workers is critical for the resource sectors including mining and forestry."
- George Pirie
Minister of Mines, and MPP for Timmins

Additional Resources​

 
interesting, went with new trains. Wonder if it was tacked onto VIA's order or something.

Exciting! I wonder what the Livery will look like. Also good to see the province taking real steps here finally, laying down real money.

Anyone know which of the business case service models 3 trains lends itself to? Could they operate the 2x daily service with that?

Edit: it appears they are going with the seasonally adjusted service pattern.
 
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This is excellent news. I hope ON and the government also see the benefit of a Daily Toronto-North Bay service. And with a cost sharing agreement with Metrolinx to allow riders from Gormely to take the train to Toronto mid day.
 
So no need for a wye if the train terminates or drops into Timmins.

Garuda said:
This is excellent news. I hope ON and the government also see the benefit of a Daily Toronto-North Bay service. And with a cost sharing agreement with Metrolinx to allow riders from Gormely to take the train to Toronto mid day.
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Does every train have to double as commuter train? The Canadian doesn't stop south of Washago either. Like any long distance passenger train, particularly in Canada, I would suspect the timing would be inconsistent enough to be inconvenient for anybody making commuter-type plans.
 
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