I guessed at the underground station costs. I assumed that they would be more expensive (although I don't remember the exact numbers I used) than the surface stations. That's probably where the difference comes from.
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- Thread starter green22
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I guessed at the underground station costs. I assumed that they would be more expensive (although I don't remember the exact numbers I used) than the surface stations. That's probably where the difference comes from.
It actually came from the Mayor's office. His instructions were to come up with a plan that was either $2.1 billion or less. When they realized they couldn't do the Cross Country for under $2.1 billion, they started looking at other options. The Queen alignment decreased the cost to the point where it could squeeze in under the $2.1 billion cap.
The Councillor simply suggest the alternative that could potentially bring down the cost.
I wouldn't really expect it to be the same cost as Spadina. Digging through suburbia is far different than digging through a downtown core. I would expect that the DRL should be in the same neighbourhood if it were ever built, maybe moderately more expensive because of the complicated interchange stations that would need to be built.
drum118
Superstar
25% Ontario Content reduce and who is next??
The Ontario rules for the portion of light rail procurement with Canadian content may be relaxed by the province, according to the infrastructure minister. That might benefit the federal capital of Ottawa, which is starting the process of building a light rail line, Ottawa Business Journal reports:
http://tinyurl.com/6cqav9b
"Chiarelli ready to relax Canadian content requirements
for light rail
Peter Kovessy
Published on July 11, 2011
Ottawa Business Journal
(photo caption)
Bombardier only firm with Canadian manufacturing operations
(article)
With the procurement of Ottawa's light-rail line underway, Ontario Infrastructure Minister Bob Chiarelli said he's considering changes to the province's domestic content requirements.
Transit vehicles purchased with provincial funding must contain at least 25-per-cent Canadian content under a provincial policy that came into effect in 2008.
Siemens – which won the contract to construct Ottawa's ultimately aborted north-south light-rail line when Mr. Chiarelli was mayor in 2006 – is asking the province to relax this policy.
In an interview, Mr. Chiarelli at first said the 25-per-cent domestic content provision would apply to bidders on Ottawa's light-rail line.
But when questioned further, he said the province may adjust the rules.
"That 25-per-cent requirement has been on the table in discussions," he said.
"We're in a situation of evolution and everything is up for discussion … There is nothing carved in stone. We like to find the sweet spot for what makes sense for Ontario."
Adjusting provincial domestic content provisions would not only affect the bids on Ottawa's transit project, but also other Ontario municipalities preparing to construct light-rail lines, such as the Region of Waterloo.
Bombardier, which manufactures rail vehicles in Thunder Bay, Ont., would likely be most hurt by a relaxation of the rules. A company official declined to comment for this story.
A spokesperson for Siemens, which manufacturers its light-rail vehicles in Sacramento, Calif., said allowing more foreign content in Ottawa's light-rail line would save the city money.
"An amended policy will not only serve Siemens, but all other LRT vehicle suppliers," said DL Leslie in a written response to questions.
"Only Bombardier has a facility in Canada. All other suppliers will have to ramp up a facility, produce the LRT vehicles, and ramp down the facility."
Mr. Leslie noted Siemens has 5,000 Canadian employees and is expanding its manufacturing presence in Ontario with a solar inverter plant opening in Burlington late last month, and plans to open a wind turbine manufacturing facility.
The Canadian Auto Workers will likely oppose any changes that loosen Ontario's domestic content regulations. The country's largest private-sector union is running a "Buy Canadian" campaign that, among other provisions, calls on municipalities to require a minimum of 50-per-cent Canadian content and for public transit vehicles to be assembled domestically.
The CAW notes that south of the border, the Buy America Act requires 60-per-cent domestic content for federally funded public transit purchases, and 100-per-cent domestic content for material inputs such as iron and steel.
In Quebec, the government requires 60-per-cent Canadian content for provincially funded transit projects.
Many major transit vehicle manufacturers have structured their global operations to comply with domestic content regulations around the world. This has some questioning whether a change to Ontario's policy would prompt Bombardier to re-examine its Canadian footprint.
City officials took the first step in procuring this city's light-rail line when they published a request for qualifications from interested firms late last month.
Companies have until September to respond to the RFQ. A shortlist of qualified firms will be published the following month.
Those companies will then have nine months to respond to the full request for proposals. A final contract is expected to be signed by December 2012.
Last week, the city announced the underground tunnel would run beneath Queen Street, rather than Albert Street as originally planned.
The move means the tunnel will be much closer to the surface and reduces the estimated cost of the line from $2.1 billion to $1.74 billion.
Both figures are in 2009 dollars, meaning the final price will rise with inflation.
What's considered a Canadian vehicle?
The Canadian content of a transit vehicle is calculated as a percentage of the total final costs to the manufacturer, less taxes. Eligible costs include labour, subcomponents and components, project management, engineering, manuals, special tools, test equipment, freight and warranty.
Source: Ontario Ministry of Transportation
The Ontario rules for the portion of light rail procurement with Canadian content may be relaxed by the province, according to the infrastructure minister. That might benefit the federal capital of Ottawa, which is starting the process of building a light rail line, Ottawa Business Journal reports:
http://tinyurl.com/6cqav9b
"Chiarelli ready to relax Canadian content requirements
for light rail
Peter Kovessy
Published on July 11, 2011
Ottawa Business Journal
(photo caption)
Bombardier only firm with Canadian manufacturing operations
(article)
With the procurement of Ottawa's light-rail line underway, Ontario Infrastructure Minister Bob Chiarelli said he's considering changes to the province's domestic content requirements.
Transit vehicles purchased with provincial funding must contain at least 25-per-cent Canadian content under a provincial policy that came into effect in 2008.
Siemens – which won the contract to construct Ottawa's ultimately aborted north-south light-rail line when Mr. Chiarelli was mayor in 2006 – is asking the province to relax this policy.
In an interview, Mr. Chiarelli at first said the 25-per-cent domestic content provision would apply to bidders on Ottawa's light-rail line.
But when questioned further, he said the province may adjust the rules.
"That 25-per-cent requirement has been on the table in discussions," he said.
"We're in a situation of evolution and everything is up for discussion … There is nothing carved in stone. We like to find the sweet spot for what makes sense for Ontario."
Adjusting provincial domestic content provisions would not only affect the bids on Ottawa's transit project, but also other Ontario municipalities preparing to construct light-rail lines, such as the Region of Waterloo.
Bombardier, which manufactures rail vehicles in Thunder Bay, Ont., would likely be most hurt by a relaxation of the rules. A company official declined to comment for this story.
A spokesperson for Siemens, which manufacturers its light-rail vehicles in Sacramento, Calif., said allowing more foreign content in Ottawa's light-rail line would save the city money.
"An amended policy will not only serve Siemens, but all other LRT vehicle suppliers," said DL Leslie in a written response to questions.
"Only Bombardier has a facility in Canada. All other suppliers will have to ramp up a facility, produce the LRT vehicles, and ramp down the facility."
Mr. Leslie noted Siemens has 5,000 Canadian employees and is expanding its manufacturing presence in Ontario with a solar inverter plant opening in Burlington late last month, and plans to open a wind turbine manufacturing facility.
The Canadian Auto Workers will likely oppose any changes that loosen Ontario's domestic content regulations. The country's largest private-sector union is running a "Buy Canadian" campaign that, among other provisions, calls on municipalities to require a minimum of 50-per-cent Canadian content and for public transit vehicles to be assembled domestically.
The CAW notes that south of the border, the Buy America Act requires 60-per-cent domestic content for federally funded public transit purchases, and 100-per-cent domestic content for material inputs such as iron and steel.
In Quebec, the government requires 60-per-cent Canadian content for provincially funded transit projects.
Many major transit vehicle manufacturers have structured their global operations to comply with domestic content regulations around the world. This has some questioning whether a change to Ontario's policy would prompt Bombardier to re-examine its Canadian footprint.
City officials took the first step in procuring this city's light-rail line when they published a request for qualifications from interested firms late last month.
Companies have until September to respond to the RFQ. A shortlist of qualified firms will be published the following month.
Those companies will then have nine months to respond to the full request for proposals. A final contract is expected to be signed by December 2012.
Last week, the city announced the underground tunnel would run beneath Queen Street, rather than Albert Street as originally planned.
The move means the tunnel will be much closer to the surface and reduces the estimated cost of the line from $2.1 billion to $1.74 billion.
Both figures are in 2009 dollars, meaning the final price will rise with inflation.
What's considered a Canadian vehicle?
The Canadian content of a transit vehicle is calculated as a percentage of the total final costs to the manufacturer, less taxes. Eligible costs include labour, subcomponents and components, project management, engineering, manuals, special tools, test equipment, freight and warranty.
Source: Ontario Ministry of Transportation
nfitz
Superstar
I guess Siemens' lobbyist at Queen's Park has earned his pay cheque. Anyone know where the lobbyist registry is?
Mapleson
Active Member
Here's a list of "transportation" lobbyists: https://lobbyist.oico.on.ca, but Siemens' isn't on the active list.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Is there some kind of mechanism where a foreign company wins if it has a better bid than Bombardier's by a certain margin? Otherwise, what incentive is there for Bombardier to submit the most competitive bid?
rbt
Senior Member
Beginning to think the tenders should be 'net' cost. Take the bid amount and subtract a percentage (25%) of revenue from income tax collected by the province directly as a result of the tender (consider parts and assembly).
Getting LRT cheaper and paying out for unemployment is silly. Getting LRT at a very high price to use locals is also silly.
Dan416
Senior Member
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with the CAW on this. I'd like to see more LRVs built here, not less.
Mapleson
Active Member
I agree with this approach. We need our industries to be globally competitive and coddling them in for the sake of "local jobs". In this particular instance, the cost of shipping bears heavily compared to the price of Canadian labour and a non-Canadian firm (like Siemens) would be likely to set-up a Canadian plant and disassemble it when the order is through (and no more on the horizon). Often times, you have employees just shift employers, so instead of Bombardier laying off 1000 and Siemens hiring 800 others, maybe 600 of them were prequalified. It saves on start-up costs.
Local jobs are worth saving, just not at any cost.
BMO
Senior Member
LRT bidder OK with domestic content rule; Firm says 25% provision 'customary' and reasonable
Ottawa Citizen
Tue Jul 12 2011
Page: C1 / Front
Section: City
Byline: Lee Greenberg
Dateline: TORONTO
Source: Ottawa Citizen
Ottawa Citizen
Tue Jul 12 2011
Page: C1 / Front
Section: City
Byline: Lee Greenberg
Dateline: TORONTO
Source: Ottawa Citizen
Dan416
Senior Member
Good news. Common sense prevails. All is right in the world. Alstom sounds reasonable. Siemens sounds spurned. Obvious why.
drum118
Superstar
Siemens are going to offer their latest LR vehicle technology and flexibility. It wont be the S70 from Sacremento but a vehicle from one of their European plants.
Hopefully this will open up LRT contract bidding across the Province to more potential bidders, leading to more competitive bid quotes coming in.
Ottawa City Council is in the final stages of debate before voting on the LRT plan.
Here is the detailed document that was released about the stations: http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/media/pdf/Document1_TechnicalOverview_06Jul2011.pdf
I really like the wood look, although I still think that they should have done each station in the theme of a different Canadian province or territory (13 stations, works out perfectly).
Here is the detailed document that was released about the stations: http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/media/pdf/Document1_TechnicalOverview_06Jul2011.pdf
I really like the wood look, although I still think that they should have done each station in the theme of a different Canadian province or territory (13 stations, works out perfectly).