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- Thread starter Reecemartin
- Start date
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I'm glad both that there are enough riders to justify an increase, and that one is being implemented. One of the shuttle bus routes is also being cancelled.
I rode and timed the line from end to end last weekend. Two observations.
The trip took 29 minutes 30 seconds, which used to be about 25. It is still very slow in the east end, even in some stretches that are straight or nearly so. Not clear what's going on there.
Service was every 9 to 10 minutes, yet a single car was enough at Sunday midday, with empty seats even in the core. They used to run two-car trains every five minutes all weekend I think and they were nearly empty much of the day. They clearly have the ability to run a more flexible service and I think that stance is likely to continue.
I rode and timed the line from end to end last weekend. Two observations.
The trip took 29 minutes 30 seconds, which used to be about 25. It is still very slow in the east end, even in some stretches that are straight or nearly so. Not clear what's going on there.
Service was every 9 to 10 minutes, yet a single car was enough at Sunday midday, with empty seats even in the core. They used to run two-car trains every five minutes all weekend I think and they were nearly empty much of the day. They clearly have the ability to run a more flexible service and I think that stance is likely to continue.
drum118
Superstar
This will have an impact on ML bottom line that will most likely charge OC a higher collection fee. Where are other system on this??
OC Transpo rolls out O-Payment across entire transit system
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Le tout Ottawa is waking up and smelling the coffee, and coming to the mass conclusion that Stage Three of light rail, to Barrhaven and Kanata/Stittsville, ain't happening for a long time. The business case just isn't there. CBC Ottawa has a good article on this sad but refreshingly realistic development. It maybe that practical Ottawans are going to refrain from screaming about what they deserve and instead talk rationally about what they really need and can afford.
The consensus seeming to emerge is back to bus RT. Glen Gower, the pragmatic rep for Stittsville and chair of the Transit Commission, has been talking bus for months. Plans are already on the books for enhanced bus ROWs on Carling and Baseline in the western part of the infra-greenbelt, as well as Kanata North (techland) and the south part of Orleans ultra-greenbelt. Maybe these will go ahead instead.
How will the remaining issues around service to Kanata and Barrhaven be resolved? Many agree that Moodie station doesn't make sense as a permanent terminus since it's basically in the middle of nowhere. The line is already being built part of the way to Eagleson Road, and a terminal there could meet up with a completed BRT system running down from Kanata North, across to Terry Fox, and from there west and south to the rest of Kanata and Stittsville. Or maybe it could go all the way to Terry Fox since the ROW is empty scrub with bridges already in place over it.
With regard to Barrhaven, one option would be to build a very solid BRT spine from Algonquin (Baseline) to the new Trillium terminus at Limebank in Riverside South and provide very good service on it. It seems a bit of a shame not to extend LRT as far as the bus and VIA station at Fallowfield, but the city's plan for that link is highly compromised. Already high costs have climbed because of the decision to reroute around some lower-income housing (which is now being gentrified via renovictions, according to some reports). In order to save the link, might Ottawa remember that the LRT is actually an LRT and they could very easily run it down the center of Woodroffe at street level between Algonquin and the Sportsplex, much like the Eglinton Crosstown? The stations in that stretch are going to be quite lightly used and median platforms could easily handle the load. Beyond Fallowfield, the business case completely collapses. One of the trunk routes doesn't even use the existing transitway, which is now down to 4 buses an hour off-peak, a service capacity of about 400 pphpd, or 2/3 of a two-car LRT train. Get used to rubber tires, Bushaven.
The consensus seeming to emerge is back to bus RT. Glen Gower, the pragmatic rep for Stittsville and chair of the Transit Commission, has been talking bus for months. Plans are already on the books for enhanced bus ROWs on Carling and Baseline in the western part of the infra-greenbelt, as well as Kanata North (techland) and the south part of Orleans ultra-greenbelt. Maybe these will go ahead instead.
How will the remaining issues around service to Kanata and Barrhaven be resolved? Many agree that Moodie station doesn't make sense as a permanent terminus since it's basically in the middle of nowhere. The line is already being built part of the way to Eagleson Road, and a terminal there could meet up with a completed BRT system running down from Kanata North, across to Terry Fox, and from there west and south to the rest of Kanata and Stittsville. Or maybe it could go all the way to Terry Fox since the ROW is empty scrub with bridges already in place over it.
With regard to Barrhaven, one option would be to build a very solid BRT spine from Algonquin (Baseline) to the new Trillium terminus at Limebank in Riverside South and provide very good service on it. It seems a bit of a shame not to extend LRT as far as the bus and VIA station at Fallowfield, but the city's plan for that link is highly compromised. Already high costs have climbed because of the decision to reroute around some lower-income housing (which is now being gentrified via renovictions, according to some reports). In order to save the link, might Ottawa remember that the LRT is actually an LRT and they could very easily run it down the center of Woodroffe at street level between Algonquin and the Sportsplex, much like the Eglinton Crosstown? The stations in that stretch are going to be quite lightly used and median platforms could easily handle the load. Beyond Fallowfield, the business case completely collapses. One of the trunk routes doesn't even use the existing transitway, which is now down to 4 buses an hour off-peak, a service capacity of about 400 pphpd, or 2/3 of a two-car LRT train. Get used to rubber tires, Bushaven.
ARG1
Senior Member
When has anyone ever used the word "deserve" in the context of Ottawa? The only thing Ottawa "deserves" is a rail system that doesn't break down every 2 months.
There have been talks about these things in the context of Central Ottawa and Nepean, but Carling west of Lincoln Fields towards Kanata? News to me. The LRT exists as a way to improve regional travel, a Carling BRT towards Kanata would not serve that purpose well. If we want to invest in local transportation options, we are better off studying completely different corridors such as Montreal Road through Vanier.
I think it would be best to look at Phase 3 as a set of future projects rather than 1 complete project. Even if all of Phase 3 doesn't make sense, both Phase 3 projects are designed in a way where it can be split into more phases, 3 for Kanata, 2 for Barrhaven. LRT to Terryfox, and maybe Fallowfield will be just fine for now.
Dear god, please anything but that. This will take an already meme-worthy system and make it even more meme worthy. As much as I hate the fact that this system is an LRT, at least it can be described as a hampered metro, with the option on the table for future automation and other goodies. The last thing we need is to hamper the entire network because we decided to save some money, and make 2km of a 30km system at grade.
This I agree with, the case for the line beyond Fallowfield isn't there, beyond removing a linear transfer. That being said, "One of the trunk routes doesn't even use the existing transitway", what do you mean by this?
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Buses 74 and 75 both run south to Fallowfield every 15 minutes 75 takes the transitway while 74 goes straight up Woodroffe. Eventually they meet up. There are extra buses on the transitway during peak hours.
I get the objection to running directly on the road. This possibility was however the stated reason for choosing LRT in the first place, and now that Jim Watson is gone people at city are freer from the requirement to mouth the party line and call everything improved. If built the 3 elevated stations are going be virtually unused during much of the day. I'd like to see all possibilities discussed.
I get the objection to running directly on the road. This possibility was however the stated reason for choosing LRT in the first place, and now that Jim Watson is gone people at city are freer from the requirement to mouth the party line and call everything improved. If built the 3 elevated stations are going be virtually unused during much of the day. I'd like to see all possibilities discussed.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Carling BRT is designated LRT in the Ottawa Transportation Master Plan and ran eastward from the Confed Line to the Trillium Line, not westward to Kanata.
Barrhaven Town Centre is already being intensfied, and the Transitway going there already grade separated. Fallowfield is a Park n Ride lot with little chance of intensification because it borders the Greenbelt and because of proximity to Ottawa airport. Fallowfield is not the ideal terminus.
Barrhaven Town Centre is already being intensfied, and the Transitway going there already grade separated. Fallowfield is a Park n Ride lot with little chance of intensification because it borders the Greenbelt and because of proximity to Ottawa airport. Fallowfield is not the ideal terminus.
ARG1
Senior Member
I'm aware of the Carling LRT plan, but we're talking about a BRT as a replacement to a Stage 3 Otrain Extension, thus implying a BRT between maybe Lincoln Fields and March (or something like that).
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Any confusion about Carling (and Baseline) is down to me. What I meant is that with LRT extensions so expensive for almost no realizable benefit in speed, capacity, or ridership, the city should start looking at other projects already in the works.
Carling does have a notional rail plan, but I would argue it's a zombie. I think originally it was to be branch off the north-south LRT, but that was replaced by heavy rail. There is no clear surface path into the core for it, and a tunnel would be hugely expensive for a secondary line. Ending it at Dows' Lake station would dump everyone on the Trillium line with 12 minute headways and another change at Bayview if heading downtown. There is already some work done on bus lanes, and I would guess the next transit plan is going to show Carling as a bus corridor with a number of lines (as today) sharing a curb- or center-lane ROW. Nothing else is affordable or practical.
BRT probably will replace LRT to Kanata for the next generation, but it's more likely to run from Moodie I think. The 417 already has bus lanes that absent congestion are faster than LRT speeds, so I am not sure what building a separate ROW gains anyone. Because Kanata has an employment center in the North I believe it has more of a two-way flow than Barrhaven. The ROW for rail is clear and empty, and some of the rail will already be in place because of the depot. For that reason I think the city will try to get funds to extend to Kanata as a fig leaf, point out that Barrhaven has bus connections to two different rail lines, and try to work on holding ridership in parts of the city that have felt neglected over the past 10 years. At some times of day, more buses actually run down Bank street through the Glebe and Centretown per hour than to and from Barrhaven. The 2013 transit plan talked about priority measures for corridors where a separate ROW isn't feasible but virtually (or literally) nothing has been started.
Carling does have a notional rail plan, but I would argue it's a zombie. I think originally it was to be branch off the north-south LRT, but that was replaced by heavy rail. There is no clear surface path into the core for it, and a tunnel would be hugely expensive for a secondary line. Ending it at Dows' Lake station would dump everyone on the Trillium line with 12 minute headways and another change at Bayview if heading downtown. There is already some work done on bus lanes, and I would guess the next transit plan is going to show Carling as a bus corridor with a number of lines (as today) sharing a curb- or center-lane ROW. Nothing else is affordable or practical.
BRT probably will replace LRT to Kanata for the next generation, but it's more likely to run from Moodie I think. The 417 already has bus lanes that absent congestion are faster than LRT speeds, so I am not sure what building a separate ROW gains anyone. Because Kanata has an employment center in the North I believe it has more of a two-way flow than Barrhaven. The ROW for rail is clear and empty, and some of the rail will already be in place because of the depot. For that reason I think the city will try to get funds to extend to Kanata as a fig leaf, point out that Barrhaven has bus connections to two different rail lines, and try to work on holding ridership in parts of the city that have felt neglected over the past 10 years. At some times of day, more buses actually run down Bank street through the Glebe and Centretown per hour than to and from Barrhaven. The 2013 transit plan talked about priority measures for corridors where a separate ROW isn't feasible but virtually (or literally) nothing has been started.
drum118
Superstar
ARG1
Senior Member
I am... absolutely speechless.
lrt's friend
Active Member
The key part of the headline is 'at least'
What city closes a rapid transit line for 4 years? I guess Toronto has started this process with the SRT.
One other thing is that monthly payments are going up by 500% for Line 2.
What city closes a rapid transit line for 4 years? I guess Toronto has started this process with the SRT.
One other thing is that monthly payments are going up by 500% for Line 2.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
An inept city like Ottawa is what kind. To be fair the shutdown was supposed to be a lot shorter, but work got started when Covid got started. Another option was to keep the line running during the university year and do the refit during several summers. That was ruled out without discussion. Clearly now like so many things it was a mistake. I don't think Ottawans will settle for any shutdown of the line in future for expansion to enable tighter headways.
The problem with that is that the Ottawa cheapouts made in Stage 2 will render that very tricky. The bottleneck is the decision not to double track Walkley station. Headways could be reduced from 12 to 10 or even less if that had been done, without requiring any more trains. (Not that it's clear it will be necessary soon.) When the line opens, trains will still be dawdling around much more slowly than they need to just to line up with the passing tracks, with long layovers at the terminals and at Carleton. And it's safe to assume they will be mostly empty south of South Keys.
The problem with that is that the Ottawa cheapouts made in Stage 2 will render that very tricky. The bottleneck is the decision not to double track Walkley station. Headways could be reduced from 12 to 10 or even less if that had been done, without requiring any more trains. (Not that it's clear it will be necessary soon.) When the line opens, trains will still be dawdling around much more slowly than they need to just to line up with the passing tracks, with long layovers at the terminals and at Carleton. And it's safe to assume they will be mostly empty south of South Keys.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Totally agree. The biggest part of the problem is allowing 'experts' who didn't know Ottawa to make critical decisions and Ottawa City Council not questioning those recommendations. The decision to not replace the Walkley overpass to allow double tracking means that the problem of lack of coordination between trains and buses will be perpetuated. OC Transpo seems to have a siloed mentality between rail and bus operations. The end result is unreliable transfers between trains and buses. I have experienced this. You cannot reliably schedule a 12 minute train with a 30 minute suburban bus during off-peak hours. The question remains is it even proven that the promised 12 minute schedule is possible given double length trains having to move slowly off and onto sidings even more times than before? We will see.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I'm not too concerned with the schedule as the problematic double track section north of Walkley was expanded to 700 meters or so and the system will have much better control and signaling. For all its problems the Confederation line operates really well in this respect. If you stand at the canal and watch the trains go by, they pass in almost exactly the same place.
The bus transfer is an issue but the buses aren't usually on time anyway. I'm just afraid some suburban routes are getting cut back to 60 minutes. If they are I suppose operators will be kind enough to wait for transfer passengers, lest they freeze.
The bus transfer is an issue but the buses aren't usually on time anyway. I'm just afraid some suburban routes are getting cut back to 60 minutes. If they are I suppose operators will be kind enough to wait for transfer passengers, lest they freeze.