[Vaucluse]

Charters can use Downsview....not sure how often it actually happens...but it has happened.

Bombardier owns Downsview and has owned it since the mid-90s, as well, it sits directly under the flight path for 24L & 24R. There will be no expansion of that airport.

 

[TOareaFan]

Bombardier owns Downsview and has owned it since the mid-90s, as well, it sits directly under the flight path for 24L & 24R. There will be no expansion of that airport.

I didn't suggest there would be expansion....the question was about existing shared use.....and Downsview allows some charter operations now.

 

[kEiThZ]

How about opening CFB Trenton to low cost/charter flights and private jets? There are plenty of examples of military bases used for civilian flights. It's 90 minutes away from the entire Durham region. Especially during rush hour this is more convenient than Pearson.

Yeah, no. Security nightmare for the base. It's centre of strategic and tactical airlift for the air force. Handles all VIP aircraft, special forces global transportation and acts as a forward operating base for fighters on alert for the GTA and Eastern Ontario. The government would and should say no to civilian access to one of Canada's most strategically valuable airbases.

 

[kEiThZ]

Bagotville?

Bagotville, Quebec and Comox, BC. Technically, North Bay as well, but there isn't much in the way of RCAF activity there anymore.

It's not Canada, but Honolulu airport shares its runway with the Hickam Air Force base as far as I know.

It's much easier to control a few civvy flights into a military airfield with a dedicated civilian terminal. The security required though would be much higher. In places like Comox and Baggottville, it's easy to manage with a handful of flights. This would not be the case when talking about a charter terminal at Trenton serving the GTA.

Also, with Hickham, the Americans have entire squadrons of airfield security to handle a breach resulting from passengers on the civilian aircraft. The RCAF does not have those kind of resources.

 

[urbanfan89]

It's much easier to control a few civvy flights into a military airfield with a dedicated civilian terminal. The security required though would be much higher. In places like Comox and Baggottville, it's easy to manage with a handful of flights. This would not be the case when talking about a charter terminal at Trenton serving the GTA.

Also, with Hickham, the Americans have entire squadrons of airfield security to handle a breach resulting from passengers on the civilian aircraft. The RCAF does not have those kind of resources.

Looking at Google Maps, perhaps a civilian terminal (can be as simple as a prefab warehouse for several flights to Cancun or Punta Cana per day) can be built where the golf course is located, far from the military areas. And couldn't the cost of providing security be recuperated through airline and passenger fees regardless?

 

[kEiThZ]

Looking at Google Maps, perhaps a civilian terminal (can be as simple as a prefab warehouse for several flights to Cancun or Punta Cana per day) can be built where the golf course is located, far from the military areas. And couldn't the cost of providing security be recuperated through airline and passenger fees regardless?

1) Those areas are all inside the security perimeter of the airfield. Several engineering squadrons and special training areas are around the golf course.

2) The costs required to build dedicated roadways, a terminal building and security costs would quickly render this proposal far less than cheap. Don't see why any charter carriers would want this.

3) Hamilton is a far better (and closer) option. Why the heck, would someone want to have to do all the modifications and accomodation to Trenton for a few flights a day?

4) Taking away a golf course on an airbase will bring fury against the chain of command.

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, no. Security nightmare for the base. It's centre of strategic and tactical airlift for the air force. Handles all VIP aircraft, special forces global transportation and acts as a forward operating base for fighters on alert for the GTA and Eastern Ontario. The government would and should say no to civilian access to one of Canada's most strategically valuable airbases.

Also, why would you build a civilian airport 90 mins away from Durham Region to serve it when you can build one IN Durham Region?

 

[urbanfan89]

Also, why would you build a civilian airport 90 mins away from Durham Region to serve it when you can build one IN Durham Region?

The cost (political and monetary) of building a shack at CFB Trenton and paying for extra military security must be a fraction of the cost of an entirely new airport at Pickering. That is, if a new airport in the GTA is required at all. The optics alone of building Pickering just to benefit private jets would sink the projet.

Also, wouldn't the private jet crowd prefer to use the Billy Bishop airport?

 

[TOareaFan]

The cost (political and monetary) of building a shack at CFB Trenton and paying for extra military security must be a fraction of the cost of an entirely new airport at Pickering. That is, if a new airport in the GTA is required at all. The optics alone of building Pickering just to benefit private jets would sink the projet.

Also, wouldn't the private jet crowd prefer to use the Billy Bishop airport?

The private jet crowd would love to use Billy Bishop....but they are not allowed to and likely never will be.

 

[Fritter]

Yeah, no. Security nightmare for the base. It's centre of strategic and tactical airlift for the air force. Handles all VIP aircraft, special forces global transportation and acts as a forward operating base for fighters on alert for the GTA and Eastern Ontario. The government would and should say no to civilian access to one of Canada's most strategically valuable airbases.

Trenton is being expanded to be the training and home base for JTF2. I can't see the Military wanting to share the area of their most elite special forces with civilians.

 

[Vaucluse]

I didn't suggest there would be expansion....the question was about existing shared use.....and Downsview allows some charter operations now.

Adding passenger services to an industrial airfield is an expansion. When I was stationed at Downsview in the early '90s there were no passenger facilities, and our squadron was responsible for transient flights. Since then, the hanger has been converted to indoor sports fields so there is even less ability now to handle passengers. While there may be some civil GA flights allowed under special circumstances and the military still has some rights to use the airfield I don't see any charter flights possible. (Charter flights as in the "vacation to someplace warm" flights)

 

[TOareaFan]

Adding passenger services to an industrial airfield is an expansion. When I was stationed at Downsview in the early '90s there were no passenger facilities, and our squadron was responsible for transient flights. Since then, the hanger has been converted to indoor sports fields so there is even less ability now to handle passengers. While there may be some civil GA flights allowed under special circumstances and the military still has some rights to use the airfield I don't see any charter flights possible. (Charter flights as in the "vacation to someplace warm" flights)

Well there is a bigger definition of "charter" flights and some took off from there as recently as the summer of 2016. Our local professional soccer club got a bit of press for being perhaps the only such club in the world with the ability to walk out of their training ground onto a jet and scoot off to a distant away match. Again, I never said "expand", I never said Sunwing type charters.......but if you are intent on winning some argument between you and I which only you seem to be having...ok this will help "Uncle!!!! You win!"

 

[Vaucluse]

Well there is a bigger definition of "charter" flights and some took off from there as recently as the summer of 2016. Our local professional soccer club got a bit of press for being perhaps the only such club in the world with the ability to walk out of their training ground onto a jet and scoot off to a distant away match. Again, I never said "expand", I never said Sunwing type charters.......but if you are intent on winning some argument between you and I which only you seem to be having...ok this will help "Uncle!!!! You win!"

This discussion was had twenty years ago when the base was closed. At that time the downtown councillors thought that Downsview would replace Toronto Island airport and so the island airport could be closed, North York councillors thought much like yourself that charters could be flown out of Toronto's second airport and have an economic activity centre like that around Pearson. Both groups forgot to ask who owned the property before they started their plans. I believe it was Boeing who acquired the airfield when they bought DeHavilland from the government as part of the deal. While I was at Downsview, the air traffic specialists would often tell us about how Pearson would like the base out of the picture since it made them nervous to have helicopters flying around just below commercial traffic on approach. It looks like the controllers won in the end.
I thought that eventually Pearson was to have it's "Blue 22" train and the roads to Mount Hope in Hamilton would be expanded. Pearson would continue on its path to becoming a major hub and Hamilton would be the place to go for charters to the south becoming the GTA's second airport. Looks like the GTA aviation is batting .500.

 

[TOareaFan]

This discussion was had twenty years ago when the base was closed. At that time the downtown councillors thought that Downsview would replace Toronto Island airport and so the island airport could be closed, North York councillors thought much like yourself that charters could be flown out of Toronto's second airport and have an economic activity centre like that around Pearson. Both groups forgot to ask who owned the property before they started their plans. I believe it was Boeing who acquired the airfield when they bought DeHavilland from the government as part of the deal. While I was at Downsview, the air traffic specialists would often tell us about how Pearson would like the base out of the picture since it made them nervous to have helicopters flying around just below commercial traffic on approach. It looks like the controllers won in the end.
I thought that eventually Pearson was to have it's "Blue 22" train and the roads to Mount Hope in Hamilton would be expanded. Pearson would continue on its path to becoming a major hub and Hamilton would be the place to go for charters to the south becoming the GTA's second airport. Looks like the GTA aviation is batting .500.

Either I am doing a lousy job of explaining what I am saying or you are going out of your way to misunderstand/misinterpret/misstate it...I am gonna assume the former and take one more (last) stab at it.

I have no opinion on future use of Downsview......I have no wish to see Downsview expanded....I have a full, not narrow, definition of what a chartered flight is.....so when the discussion about mixed operations at Canadian airfields came up I pointed out that some (I have no idea of how many or if it is growing) chartered flights have taken off from Downsview...that is it....nothing more, nothing less.

My personal opinion that any attempt at a second GTA airport of any size or scope is doomed to failure....Pearson is where it is and that is where airlines want to be and, consequently, where passengers want to fly to/from.....I really hope you now understand what I said (again...that chartered flights have taken off from Downsview) because I am not inclined to explain it again.....nor respond to your attempts to make it seem I am saying anything more than that.

Got it? Good!

 

[micheal_can]

The GTA does need a place for charter and private aircraft to use. It needs to be able to handle any and all aircraft. If possible that second airport should take the build of cargo that goes on cargo specific air carriers. (Fedex, etc) That mean that Downsview, Buttonville and the Island airports all are too small.