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National Post

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TTC may change seating arrangements in low-floor buses to accommodate passengers
Lack of 'knee room'
National Post
Published: Saturday, January 27, 2007

The TTC may change the seating in its low-floor buses to make it easier for passengers to sit in the back. A study conducted by TTC staff found passengers are disinclined to sit in the rear of their Orion VII buses because the seats are located on top of the wheel well and passengers must therefore climb steps to reach them. Riders also said they did not like the narrow aisle and lack of "knee room." In response, the TTC wants to use a different seating plan in 220 new buses it has ordered, replacing eight forward-facing seats with six seats that ring the perimeter of the bus. While the new design will mean fewer seats, staff conclude the changes will "improve the quality of travel experience by customers." The proposed design will be considered at a TTC meeting next week.

 

[jeicow]

I would have thought the problem is people not wanting to stand up back there. That's what I hate about them the most- the sitting not so much.

 

[samsonyuen]

standing in the back of the bus is really annoying because of the aisle being so narrow.

 

[spmarshall]

The New Flyers have a few inwards facing seats at the back and they make a world of difference. Since several of the seats are unusable anyway, I have no problems with them sacrificing two seats.

Now if only they would do it with the hundreds of buses already ordered.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The loss of two seats will be more than offset by the willingness of people to stand back there. But none of the seats are unusable...the vast majority of bus riders are fine with them.

 

[doady]

As long as back remains high-floor, people will still be reluctant to stand there, and I know this from my experience using MT. The main benefit of the seating layout change would be for comfort and I think that alone is a huge improvement.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No. The main benefit is that more people should stand back there...of course they'll always be reluctant, but right now no one fits back there at all. The overwhelming majority of bus riders sit in those seats with no complaint.

 

[doady]

Of course they don't complain, who are they going to complain to? The bus driver? Just because they don't complain to you doesn't mean the seating arrangement doesn't suck. I'm only 5 foot 9, but still I can barely fit into some of seats (especially the raised seats on top of the wheels) and they are very uncomfortable to sit in because my knees are pressed up into the seat in front of me.

I use the New Flyer buses that Spmarshall mentioned all the time, but I rarely ever see people standing back there. So I don't think the seats have much effect on this.

I think the solution for this problem is to either use fully low-floor buses (like VIVA, which introduce new problems) or to use articulated buses (which have a much larger low-floor section, while the size of the high-floor section stays the same).

 

[spmarshall]

The TTC had all-low floor buses. They're called Orion VIs, and they're terrible.

I've been on the NFIs on routes like 40 Junction, and yes, it is more likely that people will standback there. It's not as likely as with a high-floor, but people will. No one normally stands at the back of a Orion VII.

My suggestion is a all-but-high floor bus. Have the stairs up before the rear doors. Then have the rear doors step-down with a good old fashioned treadle mechanism. The low floor section would have three facing seats on both sides, and two forward-facing on each side, then a step up, then a mix of forward (on the door side) and inwards-facing seats.

Having the door above the steps will get people to stand back there. Wheelchairs, old ladies with walkers and strollers would have to be confined to the lower one-third of the bus, but with 10 seats down there, they would all be "priority" seats.

I would also wonder if a 45 foot bus could be feasible for the suburban straight-away routes like Finch East and West, Wilson/Weston Road North and York Mills, etc. GO operates 45 footers. They would add some more room, the TTC doesn't seem to want artics.

My ultimate solution is a double-decker like London or Victoria BC. They may not fit though in some of the TTC's bus terminals though. (Oh well, time to fix Wilson Station!)

It's too bad that they bought hundreds of these buses and only now are they talking changes.

 

[spmarshall]

Of course they don't complain, who are they going to complain to? The bus driver? Just because they don't complain to you doesn't mean the seating arrangement doesn't suck. I'm only 5 foot 9, but still I can barely fit into some of seats (especially the raised seats on top of the wheels) and they are very uncomfortable to sit in because my knees are pressed up into the seat in front of me.

I avoid the two second-last rows at the back for the same reason. I'm 6'2", and I really have problems with a lot of the seats on the Orion VIIs. The last row and the first two rows up the stairs are OK.

The other problem is that people are becoming really selfish about seats. They will sit back there in the outer seat, with either their bag or their imaginary friend in the inner seat. Most people don't bother asking them to move. I sometimes do. So while there's lots of seats above (some of them OK for leg room), there may be 20 people standing below. And many can't see if there are seats above either.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"I'm 6'2", and I really have problems with a lot of the seats on the Orion VIIs."

Well, I can't remember the last time I saw someone over 6' on the routes I take...tiny Asian girls fit fine back there.

The biggest problem is not the seats, it's the width of the aisle and the fact that people can't stand up there - if they do, it's total blockage. Crowding on the 190 means that people are forced up there during rush hour and it's chaos trying to manouevre around them. I never said the seats were great, anyway, just that they shouldn't be condemned because a minority of people have trouble fitting into 8 of the seats.

What they could do is add perimeter seats; it'd open up the aisle and the area at the back to standing and passing and ensure that everyone can sit everywhere. The compromise suggested in the article may work, but it may do nothing.

 

[cacruden]

Sounds like they should find a new bus supplier (maybe foreign), and as a condition of the purchase -- require that company to have some manufacturing in Canada - or license the design to a local manufacturer. Sounds like we are just not buying the best equipment for the job.

 

[doady]

My suggestion is a all-but-high floor bus. Have the stairs up before the rear doors. Then have the rear doors step-down with a good old fashioned treadle mechanism. The low floor section would have three facing seats on both sides, and two forward-facing on each side, then a step up, then a mix of forward (on the door side) and inwards-facing seats.

Having the door above the steps will get people to stand back there. Wheelchairs, old ladies with walkers and strollers would have to be confined to the lower one-third of the bus, but with 10 seats down there, they would all be "priority" seats.

That seems okay, but there may not be enough space for all the strollers at times.

I would also wonder if a 45 foot bus could be feasible for the suburban straight-away routes like Finch East and West, Wilson/Weston Road North and York Mills, etc. GO operates 45 footers. They would add some more room, the TTC doesn't seem to want artics.

Articulated buses actually turn more easily than 40 foot buses and are only slightly more expensive than what the TTC is paying for the Orion VII, so I don't think there is any point in 45 foot buses.

 

[building babel]

Not being a tiny Asian girl, I needs must recline like a grande horizontale, sprawled as gracefully as I can be across two seats, whenever I find myself stuck at the back of an Orion. The TTC ought to pay us to ride in those dreadful things.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I once saw a thuggish fellow sit in the 'captain's chair' at the back and put his feet up on the seats in the second-last row, effectively occupying 9 seats. No one bothered him.

Finch East could definitely use articulated buses again, but they'd be even better with some sort of POP/scanning fare system - waiting at one stop while more than 50 people get on and pay is a bloody nightmare.