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Perhaps we can stop the back-and-forth at this juncture; as it doesn't seem particularly productive.

The fundamental point is not defending street names or statues; I could care less about the feelings of people who were dead a century or more before I was born; and I'm not a fan of statuary as an art form.

The point was merely thus, that in a world of finite attention span and finite dollars, that perhaps changing the street names would rank below giving a disadvantaged child university tuition-free; a homeless person housing, a person whose teeth are rotting much needed dental care etc.

That won't cure all disadvantage, or discrimination, of course. But it would cut down on the worst of its negative effects.

That would be something.

*****

That said, can we move on now please?
 
Perhaps we can stop the back-and-forth at this juncture; as it doesn't seem particularly productive.

The point was merely thus, that in a world of finite attention span and finite dollars, that perhaps changing the street names would rank below giving a disadvantaged child university tuition-free; a homeless person housing, a person whose teeth are rotting much needed dental care etc.

That won't cure all disadvantage, or discrimination, of course. But it would cut down on the worst of its negative effects.

That would be something.

*****

That said, can we move on now please?
exactly I agree , that was my point 👍
 
Watchout! Using memes with black people is problematic. Digital blackface and all that.
honestly I don't know your if your joking or not ,but really is this the world we want to live in ,what crazy thing will we come up with next ???
maybe someone is gonna tell me I can't grab my guitar and go on Dundas street playing my favourite blues songs by Jimi Hendrix or B.B. King lol...
 
honestly I don't know your if your joking or not ,but really is this the world we want to live in ,what crazy thing will we come up with next ???
maybe someone is gonna tell me I can't grab my guitar and go on Dundas street playing my favourite blues songs by Jimi Hendrix or B.B. King lol...
The issue is using black people disproportionately in memes and jokes, or as memes and jokes. For example, there have been memes where simply mentioning the name of a specific black artist was the joke. Another example would be a player person using darker-skinned emojis as a joke. Making a joke out of someone's skin colour or about black people for no apparent reason is not okay. Using memes of black people is okay, as long as they're respectful and as long as every meme or joke you share isn't about or of black people (if you aren't black). The meme posted above is fine as long as you're not exclusively using memes of black people (unless you are black of course). That is not the same as appreciating music or art exclusively from black artists, as that is I'm admiration while using black people exclusively in or as jokes is ridicule.
 
The issue is using black people disproportionately in memes and jokes, or as memes and jokes. For example, there have been memes where simply mentioning the name of a specific black artist was the joke. Another example would be a player person using darker-skinned emojis as a joke. Making a joke out of someone's skin colour or about black people for no apparent reason is not okay. Using memes of black people is okay, as long as they're respectful and as long as every meme or joke you share isn't about or of black people (if you aren't black). The meme posted above is fine as long as you're not exclusively using memes of black people (unless you are black of course). That is not the same as appreciating music or art exclusively from black artists, as that is I'm admiration while using black people exclusively in or as jokes is ridicule.
I agree 👍 , but as long as we hold everyone to the same standard
 
honestly I don't know your if your joking or not ,but really is this the world we want to live in ,what crazy thing will we come up with next ???
maybe someone is gonna tell me I can't grab my guitar and go on Dundas street playing my favourite blues songs by Jimi Hendrix or B.B. King lol...
I tend to agree with you. We have a problem with thoughtlessly PC policing of culture, where no consideration is given to intent. Also, a problem where people are being denounced as "_ist" or "_phobic" and not a specific action or statement. People generally have better intentions than they are being given credit for, and may do shitty things out of ignorance of the impact. It is more productive to criticize the transgression than the person, unless that person has shown they are aware of the impact and intentional in their transgression.

Turning back to the subject of Dundas Street, I find it hard to believe anyone would be all that offended by the fact that it was named after someone who is vaguely shitty without having the background explained to them. I doubt average people have any idea who the street is named after, and the namesake has faded into the sands of time. I don't think he, as a historical figure, is in any way deserving of the honour of having a street named after him, but a campaign to scrub the name from our public realm given his irrelevance seems like performative outrage or outrage in search of a target. All of which is to impose a burden of renaming a well-known place on the people of the city. Surely there are more productive ways to address racism than erasing forgotten racists.
 

the American Revolution was a mistake

From link.

...
Abolition would have come faster without independence​


The main reason the revolution was a mistake is that the British Empire, in all likelihood, would have abolished slavery earlier than the US did, and with less bloodshed.

Abolition in most of the British Empire occurred in 1834, following the passage of the Slavery Abolition Act. That left out India, but slavery was banned there, too, in 1843. In England itself, slavery was illegal at least going back to 1772. That's decades earlier than the United States.

This alone is enough to make the case against the revolution. Decades less slavery is a massive humanitarian gain that almost certainly dominates whatever gains came to the colonists from independence.

The main benefit of the revolution to colonists was that it gave more political power to America's white male minority. For the vast majority of the country — its women, slaves, American Indians — the difference between disenfranchisement in an independent America and disenfranchisement in a British-controlled colonial America was negligible. If anything, the latter would've been preferable, since at least women and minorities wouldn't be singled out for disenfranchisement. From the vantage point of most of the country, who cares if white men had to suffer through what everyone else did for a while longer, especially if them doing so meant slaves gained decades of free life?

It's true that had the US stayed, Britain would have had much more to gain from the continuance of slavery than it did without America. It controlled a number of dependencies with slave economies — notably Jamaica and other islands in the West Indies — but nothing on the scale of the American South. Adding that into the mix would've made abolition significantly more costly.

But the South's political influence within the British Empire would have been vastly smaller than its influence in the early American republic. For one thing, the South, like all other British dependencies, lacked representation in Parliament. The Southern states were colonies, and their interests were discounted by the British government accordingly. But the South was also simply smaller as a chunk of the British Empire's economy at the time than it was as a portion of America's. The British crown had less to lose from the abolition of slavery than white elites in an independent America did.

The revolutionaries understood this. Indeed, a desire to preserve slavery helped fuel Southern support for the war. In 1775, after the war had begun in Massachusetts, the Earl of Dunmore, then governor of Virginia, offered the slaves of rebels freedom if they came and fought for the British cause. Eric Herschthal, a PhD student in history at Columbia, notes that the proclamation united white Virginians behind the rebel effort. He quotes Philip Fithian, who was traveling through Virginia when the proclamation was made, saying, "The Inhabitants of this Colony are deeply alarmed at this infernal Scheme. It seems to quicken all in Revolution to overpower him at any Risk." Anger at Dunmore's emancipation ran so deep that Thomas Jefferson included it as a grievance in a draft of the Declaration of Independence. That's right: the declaration could've included "they're conscripting our slaves" as a reason for independence.

For white slaveholders in the South, Simon Schama writes in Rough Crossings, his history of black loyalism during the Revolution, the war was "a revolution, first and foremost, mobilized to protect slavery."

Slaves also understood that their odds of liberation were better under British rule than independence. Over the course of the war, about 100,000 African slaves escaped, died, or were killed, and tens of thousands enlisted in the British army, far more than joined the rebels. "Black Americans' quest for liberty was mostly tied to fighting for the British — the side in the War for Independence that offered them freedom," historian Gary Nash writes in The Forgotten Fifth, his history of African Americans in the revolution. At the end of the war, thousands who helped the British were evacuated to freedom in Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and England.

This is not to say the British were motivated by a desire to help slaves; of course they weren't. But American slaves chose a side in the revolution, the side of the crown. They were no fools. They knew that independence meant more power for the plantation class that had enslaved them and that a British victory offered far greater prospects for freedom....
 
I was listening to the current Lord Melville on the radio last week and he made a compelling case for why Dundas wasn’t as guilty on the slavery issue as we believe.


I get the sense that Toronto is suffering from FOMO and desperately wants to be seen as being part of the BLM wave. If Dundas was really such a bastardly slavery advocate or abolitionist-delayer then sure, let’s go full Orwellian-Pyongyang and scrub his name from all public places, but let‘s make sure he deserves our derision first.
 
The Star has quite a list of potential candidates for change (sorry, I don't know how to manipulate paywalled sites). Perhaps the city should just number everything. Boring but probably safe until somebody raises cultural sensitivity to certain numbers. The risk of leaving out even one eponymous street is somebody will unearth a time they yelled at a kitten.
 
I was listening to the current Lord Melville on the radio last week and he made a compelling case for why Dundas wasn’t as guilty on the slavery issue as we believe.


I get the sense that Toronto is suffering from FOMO and desperately wants to be seen as being part of the BLM wave. If Dundas was really such a bastardly slavery advocate or abolitionist-delayer then sure, let’s go full Orwellian-Pyongyang and scrub his name from all public places, but let‘s make sure he deserves our derision first.

Wait til people find out Jarvis actually owned slaves.
 
Originally, Dundas Street eastern terminal was at Queen Street West and today's Ossington Avenue. See link for more information.

20120929-Dundas-Map-oss-uni.jpg

20120929-Dundas-Map-uni-broadview.jpg

20120929-Dundas-Map-broad-wood.jpg


We could rename Dundas Street to Arthur Street, St. Patrick Street, Anderson Street, Agnes Street, Wilton Street, Wilton Crescent, and other streets such as Applegrove Avenue, Ashbridge Avenue, Maughan Crescent, and Hemlock Avenue.

There is already existing streets with some of those name, such as St. Patrick Street, but we could change the suffix to something else, IE. St. Patrick Avenue. Then we don't have to rename ST. PATRICK STATION since it would be named after St. Patrick Avenue, or whatever.
 
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I like "Applegrove Avenue". The original name of Dundas Street near Coxwell. Unless there is a "history" behind "applegrove" that I don't know about.
 

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