picard102
Senior Member
And they've been discredited.
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- Thread starter BMO
- Start date
turbanplanner
Senior Member
Just like I'm not going to read 40 pages of this thread I don't think most people especially with everyone struggling now are going to read history that's irrelevant for them
kamira51
Active Member
Yeah, because we're also trying to remove his exstance from the history books
turbanplanner
Senior Member
erasing history won't fix itYeah, because we're also trying to remove his exstance from the history books
zang
Senior Member
Nobody's trying to erase him from history books.Yeah, because we're also trying to remove his exstance from the history books
SubHuman
Active Member
I don't care about the culture wars or the name used for the rest of the street, but as I mentioned here before more than once, I've always thought it would make sense for a somewhat less politically charged reason -- avoiding confusion -- to rename the portion of the street that runs in a north-south direction, and its TTC/GO/UPX station(s), as Roncesvalles. Just in the last few weeks I've had three occasions of being approached while near the station(s) by obviously confused tourists or visitors unfamiliar with the city looking for their hotel (I don't know of any within walking distance) or the Eaton Centre, and heard multiple stories of delivery people and others (including one about the location of a building that was on fire) being misdirected by their map apps to the wrong "Bloor and Dundas" intersection of the two different ones that exist on the western side of the city.
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UrbanFervour
Active Member
The point of this is to make a big spectacle of expunging a white man from the public sphere so unless you can find someone named Dundas who is BIPOC, LGBTQ or in some other way NOT a white or a cisgendered male, it's a non-starter.
My guess is the street will be renamed by an unelected committee and will either get an indigenous name few can pronounce, or be named after an "unsung hero" - perhaps Toronto's first indigenous post officer or a black lesbian who ran the women's studies program at Metropolitan University.
DSC
Superstar
A few weeks ago I wrote to the mayor saying that, though Dundas may not be a suitable name, it is a name we have and better to explain it rather than try to erase it. I also noted that as the City is clearly very short of $$ it really might be best not to spend any of it on non-essential things.
I got a response.
"Thank you for your writing to share your concerns and suggestions regarding the renaming of Dundas Street with Mayor Chow. Please accept our apologies for the delayed reply.
As you may be aware, during the July 2021 City Council meeting, Council directed the City Manager to establish a Community Advisory Committee comprising Black and Indigenous leaders, as well as other diverse residents and business owners from the Dundas Street area. This committee's purpose is to develop a shortlist of alternative names for both Dundas Street and Yonge-Dundas Square. Further details about this meeting can be found here:
https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2021.EX25.1
In continued collaboration with the Community Advisory Committee's input and assistance, the City intends to release the shortlist of names for public feedback in the fall of 2023. Subsequently, based on insights from public surveys and thorough research into the historical significance and usage of each name, the Committee members will proceed to select a proposed new name (or names) for the street and/or square. These selections will then be presented to the City Council for deliberation in early 2024. Concurrently, updated cost estimates will be presented alongside the report to the City Council. At that time, City Council will vote on how to proceed.
We are encouraging the active participation of Torontonians in the forthcoming public feedback process that will follow the release of the shortlist from the Community Advisory Committee this fall.
Although the Mayor stands behind Council's original motion to rename Dundas Street, she is also eager to hear from concerned citizens and to encourage public involvement in a matter that resonates throughout the city and beyond. We also welcome meaningful and ongoing engagement with the public, as we continue to put effort toward the many urgent priorities affecting the health, safety and well-being of everyday Torontonians."
I got a response.
"Thank you for your writing to share your concerns and suggestions regarding the renaming of Dundas Street with Mayor Chow. Please accept our apologies for the delayed reply.
As you may be aware, during the July 2021 City Council meeting, Council directed the City Manager to establish a Community Advisory Committee comprising Black and Indigenous leaders, as well as other diverse residents and business owners from the Dundas Street area. This committee's purpose is to develop a shortlist of alternative names for both Dundas Street and Yonge-Dundas Square. Further details about this meeting can be found here:
https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2021.EX25.1
In continued collaboration with the Community Advisory Committee's input and assistance, the City intends to release the shortlist of names for public feedback in the fall of 2023. Subsequently, based on insights from public surveys and thorough research into the historical significance and usage of each name, the Committee members will proceed to select a proposed new name (or names) for the street and/or square. These selections will then be presented to the City Council for deliberation in early 2024. Concurrently, updated cost estimates will be presented alongside the report to the City Council. At that time, City Council will vote on how to proceed.
We are encouraging the active participation of Torontonians in the forthcoming public feedback process that will follow the release of the shortlist from the Community Advisory Committee this fall.
Although the Mayor stands behind Council's original motion to rename Dundas Street, she is also eager to hear from concerned citizens and to encourage public involvement in a matter that resonates throughout the city and beyond. We also welcome meaningful and ongoing engagement with the public, as we continue to put effort toward the many urgent priorities affecting the health, safety and well-being of everyday Torontonians."
lenaitch
Senior Member
UrbanFervour
Active Member
Here is the text of the former mayors' letter:
Dear Mayor and City Councillors,
We, former Mayors of Toronto, request you to re-consider the decision to re name Dundas Street. We question the interpretation of the research leading to that decision and the practicality of carrying it out.
Henry Dundas (1742-1811) was, according to a considerable amount of historic evidence, a committed abolitionist of slavery.
His first achievement as an abolitionist was in 1778, when, as a lawyer, he took a appeal case in Scotland, of an enslaved person Joseph Knight, brought to Scotland from Jamaica by his owner. In court Dundas stated that he 11hoped for the honour of Scotland, that the supreme Court of this country would not be the only court that would give its sanction to so barbarous a claim. Human nature, my Lords, spurns at the thought of slavery among any part of our species." The judges not only agreed but ended slavery completely in Scotland.
Dundas has been faulted for his next act on the subject, in 1792. Then a British MP, he moved an amendment to a motion of William Wilberforce on the abolition of the slave trade to make it gradual. Wilberforce's motion of the previous year, 1791, had failed miserably, 163 to 88. With Dundas's amendment, it at least passed in the House of Commons, the first anti-slavery motion to do so in Great Britain. Unfortunately, the plan was subsequently defeated in the House of Lords.
It would take a lot more than a British law to get rid of the slave trade and slavery, which Dundas understood. Yet even Wilberforce eventually came to see the necessity of intermediate steps: in 1823 he became vice-president of the Society for the Mitigation and Gradual Abolition of Slavery.
Dundas's appointment, of John Graves Simcoe, also an abolitionist, as the first lieutenant-governor of Upper Canada (Ontario) also promoted the anti-slavery cause. On arrival, Simcoe sought to get an abolition bill adopted, but there were slave owners in the House of Assembly and much opposition. The abolitionist attorney-general, John White, who presented it, then revised it drastically and it passed in 1793, making Ontario the first jurisdiction in the British Empire to adopt an anti-slavery law. John White, not so incidentally, was defeated in the next election.
Dundas was also enlightened about French-English relations in Canada, notably requiring laws to be enacted in both languages, instead of English only. He also was responsible for Britain taking steps to reverse two decades of oppression of Black Loyalists in the Atlantic provinces.
In summary, it appears that Henry Dundas for whom the street is named, was a committed abolitionist who, when facing strong opposition and certain defeat, rather than give up his quest, advocated for interim measures that would ultimately lead to that result. It seems he was doing the best he could under challenging circumstances at that time in history. Therefore, we don't see a valid reason to remove his name from the street.
From a practical perspective, and given the City's financial circumstance, there are more appropriate ways to spend $8.6 Million.
On behalf of David Crombie, John Sewell, Art Eggleton
Dear Mayor and City Councillors,
We, former Mayors of Toronto, request you to re-consider the decision to re name Dundas Street. We question the interpretation of the research leading to that decision and the practicality of carrying it out.
Henry Dundas (1742-1811) was, according to a considerable amount of historic evidence, a committed abolitionist of slavery.
His first achievement as an abolitionist was in 1778, when, as a lawyer, he took a appeal case in Scotland, of an enslaved person Joseph Knight, brought to Scotland from Jamaica by his owner. In court Dundas stated that he 11hoped for the honour of Scotland, that the supreme Court of this country would not be the only court that would give its sanction to so barbarous a claim. Human nature, my Lords, spurns at the thought of slavery among any part of our species." The judges not only agreed but ended slavery completely in Scotland.
Dundas has been faulted for his next act on the subject, in 1792. Then a British MP, he moved an amendment to a motion of William Wilberforce on the abolition of the slave trade to make it gradual. Wilberforce's motion of the previous year, 1791, had failed miserably, 163 to 88. With Dundas's amendment, it at least passed in the House of Commons, the first anti-slavery motion to do so in Great Britain. Unfortunately, the plan was subsequently defeated in the House of Lords.
It would take a lot more than a British law to get rid of the slave trade and slavery, which Dundas understood. Yet even Wilberforce eventually came to see the necessity of intermediate steps: in 1823 he became vice-president of the Society for the Mitigation and Gradual Abolition of Slavery.
Dundas's appointment, of John Graves Simcoe, also an abolitionist, as the first lieutenant-governor of Upper Canada (Ontario) also promoted the anti-slavery cause. On arrival, Simcoe sought to get an abolition bill adopted, but there were slave owners in the House of Assembly and much opposition. The abolitionist attorney-general, John White, who presented it, then revised it drastically and it passed in 1793, making Ontario the first jurisdiction in the British Empire to adopt an anti-slavery law. John White, not so incidentally, was defeated in the next election.
Dundas was also enlightened about French-English relations in Canada, notably requiring laws to be enacted in both languages, instead of English only. He also was responsible for Britain taking steps to reverse two decades of oppression of Black Loyalists in the Atlantic provinces.
In summary, it appears that Henry Dundas for whom the street is named, was a committed abolitionist who, when facing strong opposition and certain defeat, rather than give up his quest, advocated for interim measures that would ultimately lead to that result. It seems he was doing the best he could under challenging circumstances at that time in history. Therefore, we don't see a valid reason to remove his name from the street.
From a practical perspective, and given the City's financial circumstance, there are more appropriate ways to spend $8.6 Million.
On behalf of David Crombie, John Sewell, Art Eggleton
DSC
Superstar
It is very seldom that I think Councillor Holyday asks a good question but ..
Dan416
Senior Member
Can they just stop this charade already?
DSC
Superstar
Here is the City Manager's response to Holyday's question. Frankly, time to move on and stop wasting time & money. It is far from clear that Henry Dundas was the 'monster' some have stated and the $$ would be FAR better used to do some signage giving context to the naming and on actually helping people who may continue to suffer from the effects of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. From: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2023/ia/bgrd/backgroundfile-241565.pdf My emphasis.
Re: Administrative Inquiry Regarding Renaming Dundas Street
Councillor Holyday submitted an Administrative Inquiry to seek information on Renaming Dundas Street. This letter provides a response to this request. It has been developed in collaboration with Economic Development & Culture and Transportation Services.
Introduction On July 14, 2021, City Council adopted recommendations to undertake a process to rename Dundas Street based on its namesake Henry Dundas’ role in delaying the abolition of the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Council directed the City Manager to convene a Community Advisory Committee (CAC) to develop a shortlist of potential new names for Dundas Street and other City-owned assets bearing the Dundas name, and a transition plan to support impacted residents and businesses. A 20-person CAC comprising Black and Indigenous leaders, along with other diverse residents and business owners living and working along Dundas Street was formed in fall 2021. Since then, the CAC has met regularly to discuss options for names and conduct related research.
Response. Please find below responses to each of the questions submitted.
1. What is the most recent assessment by staff of the total cost of renaming Dundas Street? Specifically, (a) what are the total costs that staff estimate will have to be paid by the city, the province, businesses and residents, if the city proceeds with changing the name of the street; and (b) what is the total cost, to date, for past spending on the renaming project, including but not limited to payments for consultants, community consultations, Community Advisory Committee meetings, honoraria, speakers, etc.
The most recent 2023 estimated cost for renaming Dundas Street is approximately $11.3 – 12.7 million. This includes preliminary estimates for costs to City divisions, agencies, corporations, residents, and businesses. The main drivers relate to Transportation Services, Toronto Transit Commission, Toronto Parking Authority, as well as other signage, communication, and public engagement costs .Estimates have increased since figures were shared with Council in 2021, reflecting inflationary pressures, updated inventories, installation contract cost escalations, and additional resources required to plan and administer implementation. Provincial costs are excluded from these figures as updated information was not available at the time of the preparation of this response. Impacted City Divisions, Agencies and Corporations will continue to refine cost estimates as implementation planning work progresses. b) The total cost of work on the Dundas Renaming project to date is approximately$250,000. This includes consultants’ fees, communications, consultations, and Community Advisory Committee meetings and honoraria.
Re: Administrative Inquiry Regarding Renaming Dundas Street
Councillor Holyday submitted an Administrative Inquiry to seek information on Renaming Dundas Street. This letter provides a response to this request. It has been developed in collaboration with Economic Development & Culture and Transportation Services.
Introduction On July 14, 2021, City Council adopted recommendations to undertake a process to rename Dundas Street based on its namesake Henry Dundas’ role in delaying the abolition of the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Council directed the City Manager to convene a Community Advisory Committee (CAC) to develop a shortlist of potential new names for Dundas Street and other City-owned assets bearing the Dundas name, and a transition plan to support impacted residents and businesses. A 20-person CAC comprising Black and Indigenous leaders, along with other diverse residents and business owners living and working along Dundas Street was formed in fall 2021. Since then, the CAC has met regularly to discuss options for names and conduct related research.
Response. Please find below responses to each of the questions submitted.
1. What is the most recent assessment by staff of the total cost of renaming Dundas Street? Specifically, (a) what are the total costs that staff estimate will have to be paid by the city, the province, businesses and residents, if the city proceeds with changing the name of the street; and (b) what is the total cost, to date, for past spending on the renaming project, including but not limited to payments for consultants, community consultations, Community Advisory Committee meetings, honoraria, speakers, etc.
The most recent 2023 estimated cost for renaming Dundas Street is approximately $11.3 – 12.7 million. This includes preliminary estimates for costs to City divisions, agencies, corporations, residents, and businesses. The main drivers relate to Transportation Services, Toronto Transit Commission, Toronto Parking Authority, as well as other signage, communication, and public engagement costs .Estimates have increased since figures were shared with Council in 2021, reflecting inflationary pressures, updated inventories, installation contract cost escalations, and additional resources required to plan and administer implementation. Provincial costs are excluded from these figures as updated information was not available at the time of the preparation of this response. Impacted City Divisions, Agencies and Corporations will continue to refine cost estimates as implementation planning work progresses. b) The total cost of work on the Dundas Renaming project to date is approximately$250,000. This includes consultants’ fees, communications, consultations, and Community Advisory Committee meetings and honoraria.
SubHuman
Active Member
Dundas St W through the western part of the city, and the "circuitous" route of the train line you complained about in another thread, roughly line up with each other.
I was on a bus returning from Fallsview (to University Ave at Dundas) on a night when the Gardiner Expressway was closed. I assume the bus driver, when we had to exit at the 427, must have told her navigation device to go to Dundas St, and so that's what happened. It crawled all along that circuitous route pointlessly giving us a slow scenic tour of parts of the city none of us wanted to see on that night.
As I mentioned in the post above, the existence of smart phones and map apps has done nothing to alleviate these type of problems and confusion caused by the names of the GO/UPX and TTC stations, and the two different "Bloor and Dundas" intersections. Delivery people still go to the wrong part of the city, and even radio news and traffic reports never bother to specify which one of the two intersections they're talking about.
That's why changing the name, at least through some of the western part of the city, would make sense.
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DSC
Superstar
The multiple versions of names for streets is a completely different problem and one looked at by the City about a decade ago. At that time they decided that the cost of changing names was FAR too costly so we have several George and Queen streets and MANY others.