[micheal_can]

Quick reminder that you can’t buy something what the current owner is unwilling to sell. CN operates trains through Point-Saint-Charles, CPKC through Agincourt and neither will be able to sell any ROW which serves their transcontinental operations. However, you can build grade separations to separate your trains from their trains, but even that requires cooperation from the infrastructure owner (google “Dorval bridge to nowhere” if you don’t know what I mean)…

I meant more between those areas. Getting in and out of both Toronto and Montreal will be the challenge. If money were not a concern, I'd simply bury the line. However,that is unrealistic.

 

[nfitz]

The VIA Fast route brings us right back to the main problem that HFR was created to fix: dealing with non-cooperative freight railways that the federal government refuses to stand up to. If CN and CP aren't interested in fundamentally reshaping their core operations then Via Fast is a non starter. The whole point of HFR is acknowledging this reality and eliminating reliance on CN as much as possible.

HFR primarily runs along other railways as well. I fundamentally don't see the difference, over which railway is being more co-operative this week.

 

[lenaitch]

I meant more between those areas. Getting in and out of both Toronto and Montreal will be the challenge. If money were not a concern, I'd simply bury the line. However,that is unrealistic.

Notwithstanding that is exactly not what you said:

What about buying the lines through the cities and a greenfield new alignment to connect those downtown sections?

Outside of the the major urban centres, much of the proposed HxR alignment is essentially greenfield in terms of things like land ownership and modern infrastructure. They will be able to exploit things like existing blastings, grade fill, etc. but I'm not aware that any of the ROW, certainly between Smiths Falls and Havelock has been set aside or land banked. I do believe much of it is a train (of unknown ownership) and carries a telco easement (but I don't know if even that is current).

 

[Urban Sky]

HFR primarily runs along other railways as well. I fundamentally don't see the difference, over which railway is being more co-operative this week.

Without having any definite evidence, I’m inclined to phrase the difference in attitude of the two main host railroads in such way that CN insists on retaining operational and dispatching control over any tracks built within their ROW (even if that was paid by the public, refer to the partial triple-tracking of the Kingston Subdivision), whereas CPKC seems open to lease outside parts of their under-utilized ROWs and to allow the third party to dispatch and operate their tracks as it pleases them, as long as they don’t interfere with CPKC’s own freight trains.

If this framing is correct, then building tracks along CPKC’s Winchester and Belleville Subdivisions has fundamentally different implications compared to building tracks along CN’s Kingston Sub…

 

[nfitz]

This week perhaps.

Perhaps in 20 years, when something finally proceeds forward. Obviously this current proposal is dead once the cost comes in and/or the Conservatives get in power.

 

[Urban Sky]

Obviously this current proposal is dead once the cost comes in and/or the Conservatives get in power.

“Financing” is part of the ongoing RFP procurement. This is not the kind of “taxpayer-pays-the-lowest-bid” procurements like, for instance, VIA’s new Corridor Fleet…

 

[micheal_can]

Notwithstanding that is exactly not what you said:



Outside of the the major urban centres, much of the proposed HxR alignment is essentially greenfield in terms of things like land ownership and modern infrastructure. They will be able to exploit things like existing blastings, grade fill, etc. but I'm not aware that any of the ROW, certainly between Smiths Falls and Havelock has been set aside or land banked. I do believe much of it is a train (of unknown ownership) and carries a telco easement (but I don't know if even that is current).

I'll rephrase it as I see how it can be confusing.
Outside of Toronto and Montreal, where the lines pass through cities, such as Kingston, buy up the line and have a bypass built for freight. At that time,build new lines to connect what is still freight.

 

[nfitz]

Federal government will ask have to sign a cheque, be it lump sum, or monthly until the 2070s.

 

[MisterF]

HFR primarily runs along other railways as well. I fundamentally don't see the difference, over which railway is being more co-operative this week.

The difference has been explained to you before. CP gets a decrepit, barely usable rail line upgraded and modernized so it clearly benefits from an arrangement that would hand over control to a passenger rail operator. That's a clear and fundamental difference from the CN mainline that Via currently uses.

 

[crs1026]

HFR primarily runs along other railways as well. I fundamentally don't see the difference, over which railway is being more co-operative this week.

Only in places. Under the vanilla HFR - I would assume that CPKC would relinquish control east of Agincourt. Assuming the route ends up in Perth, the HFR trackage would run beside (rather than on) the CPKC main line over to Smiths Falls. Similarly, CP already has relinquished control east of Montreal (it's a G&W operated line to Quebec City). CPKC and/or CN would retain control from Toronto Union to Agincourt, and from about De Beaujeu in to Montreal Central station. CP would have control from Montreal Nord to east of Montreal, and then G&W will control east to just outside Gare Palais, where I belive there is a short stretch controlled by CN and CPKC. Lastly, one would expect that VIA will need access from Montreal North through Ballantyne for equipment moves to the MMC, if not to Gare Centrale.
That's just enough tenancy to create concern about freight railways not expediting passenger, but each segment is short enough that arguably the presence of a passenger train would not cause undue or lengthy delay, and the railways would have little grounds for objecting to VIA's presence. VIA will need iron clad and enforceable priority in those places.
The big worry imho is access to bridges over the Don Valley Valley in Toronto and the Ottawa River at Dorion. Those are choke points. On paper, there is plenty of capacity, but the freight operators may want first priority over those bridges.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The difference has been explained to you before. CP gets a decrepit, barely usable rail line upgraded and modernized so it clearly benefits from an arrangement that would hand over control to a passenger rail operator.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that CP is handing over control of any of the Belleville, Winchester, Adirondack, or Parc subdivisions. Or that they are in poor shape.

Sure Havelock, but the alignment is so poor, it's going to take a lot of alignment work that I still don't think is necessarily the best choice. Is there enough freight traffic on it to justify it's continued existence?

 

[lenaitch]

Is there enough freight traffic on it to justify it's continued existence?

The for-profit company that owns and operates it apparently thinks so.

 

[Bordercollie]

Have you seen the car loads? 12 hour trip to travel 100 miles can't be fun though. I guess it doesn't warrant further investment.

 

[roger1818]

Have you seen the car loads? 12 hour trip to travel 100 miles can't be fun though. I guess it doesn't warrant further investment.

It just goes to show how much money it must cost to maintain track in good working order. The money they are spending in crew and equipment costs to make that trip must be huge. CPKC will have crunched the numbers and will have found that despite that, it isn't worth the investment to upgrade the track. That alone is reason enough for CPCK to sell their Havelock Sub to someone who will upgrade it (like VIA HxR).

 

[crs1026]

Have you seen the car loads? 12 hour trip to travel 100 miles can't be fun though. I guess it doesn't warrant further investment.

The traffic on the Havelock is almost exclusively outbound bulk minerals from the mines near Nephton. I don't know who the customer or destination is.... but while this traffic may seem marginal in the context of not supporting upkeep on the Havelock line, the loads also generate revenue for whatever distance they then travel on main lines to the destination - which may be 1,000 miles or more of revenue car miles. So while the 100 train-miles on the Havelock may look unprofitable, the next 500 train-miles may be very profitable....CPKC may well want to hold on to that traffic because of its contribution to their revenue over the main line.

The whole point of preferring HFR and not HSR is that CPKC can continue to run freight (at odd hours perhaps, and much faster than at present) whereas HSR would force abandonment of freight haulage altogether.

- Paul