[Undying42]

there is no such thing as a black race or a white race. all we have are ethnic populations and cultures that are byproducts of geographical isolation that resulted from human expansion out of africa.

Not to sound ignorant or anything but how exactly does a whole society of people come to lose of the melanin pigmentation in their skin tone? It sounds counter-evolutionary to me that darker cells which absorb heat more readily would be a trait lost by inhabitants of colder climates. Even polar bears underneath all that white fur has the blackest of skin. It is possible that when Pangaea split up into various continents it took various hominind hybrids off to populate them.

a wise person once said that ethnicity isn't something you should be proud of. pride should be reserved for something you had a role in accomplishing. being born with light skin or dark skin or either coming from france or china is a genetic accident. it's something you had absolutely no part in. would you be proud to have nipples? would you be proud to have a genetic predisposition for colon cancer?

And yet if one doesn't identify with a group, they're an outcast, reject or something's wrong with them that they'd not find solidarity with others that they resemble or share common heritage with.

i shouldn't even be proud to be canadian. it just happened by accident! i'm happy to be canadian. only immigrants can be proud. if we were to teach the above in school, we'd have less problems in society.

I don't think Canadiana is being taught, at least not in the same manner as Americana. They're an immigrant nation too, but make no bones showing the whole world how unique a culture they are. Here hyphenated X-Canadians with ties to more than one country is the anti-patriotic norm.

It involves a white person as well....did you miss that, or doesn't it count?

BUT, had he said "right back at ya!" when she called him an asshole, there'd be no need for this debate. I'm not dismissive of wrongdoing on either party's part. Two wrongs don't make a right. Showing minorities that their plight is of public interest is right and rather than claim their emergence deminishes the relevancy of white pain, we can choose instead to view it as it's minorities turn to be voiced, listened to and compassioned for, equalizing society.

This was pointed out earlier in the thread, but I guess you just 'skimmed' over it.

Dude, it's 14 pages. I've got a life you know.

BTW, do you believe in racial purity?

No, as I'm not Adolf Hitler. Puritanism goes against everything I've fought for here as it paints one race having dominion over all others. I'll leave the contradiction to someone else.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

RE: Undying42

Not to sound ignorant or anything but how exactly does a whole society of people come to lose of the melanin pigmentation in their skin tone? It sounds counter-evolutionary to me that darker cells which absorb heat more readily would be a trait lost by inhabitants of colder climates. Even polar bears underneath all that white fur has the blackest of skin. It is possible that when Pangaea split up into various continents it took various hominind hybrids off to populate them.

it involves natural selection & the fact that in colder climates with less sunlight, having dark skin reduces absorption of UV rays so having lighter skin makes you better adapted to producing vitamin D and gives you a survival advantage. in hotter climates, having dark skin prevents UV damage damage to folic acid. genetic mutations & lots of generation = viola!

of course with our modern diets and technological advances, skin tone and climate aren't really a problem anymore. light guys in hot climates can wear clothing and sunscreen to protect their folic acid levels and dark guys in colder climates enjoy a diet which wasn't available tens of thousands of years ago that is over abundant with nutrients. also, it has nothing to do with heat. being black in antarctica will not stop you from freezing to death and being white in africa will not reflect the deadly UV rays.

i'll take a guess with the polar bears and say they eat lots of fish. fish liver is rich in vitamin D therefore natural selection didn't effect them in that way.


P.S, pangea broke up way too long ago. i don't think hominids existed then. humans have only be around for 250K years at most; and that's a pretty generous number.

And yet if one doesn't identify with a group, they're an outcast, reject or something's wrong with them that they'd not find solidarity with others that they resemble or share common heritage with.

i don't think so. finding solidarity with others just because you came from the same country or same town will set you up into a position to be exploited.

 

[EnviroTO]

Which is precisely where I was heading with my innocent people remark. People who didn't ask to be born into a minority ethnicity/racial group shouldn't be slandered for who they biologically are. Nigger is derivative of Negro which comes from Negroid, the anthropological definition of the black race. So as a insult you're persecuting on the basis of not only one's appearence but their very being.

But being black shouldn't be seen as an insult. If the Toronto Star and CNN report Joseph A Blowtakamus is an asshole what the world learns is that Joseph A Blowtakamus is mean or has a bad attitude. If the Toronto Star and CNN report Joseph A Blowtakamus is a "nigger" what the world learns is that Joseph A Blowtakamus is black and that the Toronto Star and CNN are being rude and not politically correct. The word is definitely meant to be an insult but it lacks meaningful substance. Black isn't ones very being. Black is a colour. People believing that "black is their being" is what leads people to being copy cats of what they see in the media. Black doesn't tell you anything about ones self. Black doesn't say anything about an individual other than their skin is dark. If one wants to look to history "nigger" shouldn't be the insult because there is no crime in being the victim, the crime is being the enslaver. Being called a "racist" should be seen as a worse insult than "nigger".

Present-day blacks are no more accountable for their slavery legacy than whites but still are at a disadvantage due to social issues stemming back to slavery. People can only evolve so far if there's a systematic unwillingness to accomodate and appease in the name of racial parity and social equity.

The social issues that remain are largely due to self-esteem. These same social issues affect all races. A person born in a trailer park has a great likelihood of staying there. A woman abused by her alcoholic mother is more likely to become an abusive alcoholic mother. The solution to getting people out of the trailer park and out of a vicious cycle is to (a) have one-on-one counselling, and (b) programs that get them into the community like the Big Brother program and camps for kids. Programs that say "you are a normal person", say "you are equal to everyone else", and say "you are Canadian". People need to feel like they belong and have self worth. It isn't going to be easy to tell people they are the equal to everyone else if they are isolated from everybody else.

That's a hyperbolic reaction to a metaphor. Words ARE bullets, only with butterfly wings. Weapons are recognizable dangers. Word usage can con and manipulate the timid; criticize and irritate the righteous and most poignantly viscerate and accost the naive. The unforseen hazard of words leave the bigger impact.

Words are never more dangerous than bullets. I can go up to anyone on the street and give them the choice of me (a) calling them the biggest insult I can think of or (b) getting shot and with great certainty I can tell you nobody will choose to be shot. If you think that when you get shot that it has no mental impact you are wrong. People come back from war with serious mental problems. People who have encountered violence wake up in the middle of the night in fear. When someone shoots words at you, you have a choice to believe or not believe what they are telling you. With words you have a choice to see the person as an ignorant person whose words mean nothing. Only the words of someone you see as knowledgeable or who you respect should mean anything to you.

I meant 'friends' betraying you, talking crap about you behind your back, sabotaging or upstaging your projects. No rape was involved.

With friends or co-workers it will hurt much more because you trusted them and they betrayed you. That betrayal feels is bad regardless of race.

Okay maybe it's not "white" but look at it from this perspective. How does it appeal to minority youth? The history/geography/art of Canada isn't intentionally made to feel that way, but very well may not grasp the attention of a Congolese or Brazilian 2nd gen as readily as a kid from Bathurst, NB.

I think you are mistakenly thinking that somehow these subjects appeal to non-minorities more. The number of kids that jump up and down for joy at the idea of curriculum are few and far between. In addition this country has always been a country of immigrants so even a kid from Bathurst NB probably has parents or grandparents that arrived on a boat from somewhere.

Maybe an elective World History course in leiu of Cdn History would be of more excitement and intrigue to them. Show how Canada relates to the rest of the world and hence the various nationalities represented to most GTA classrooms. Make those connections and maybe the TDSB cirricula will become less alienable. Isn't Canada apart of an increasingly globalizational world?

In addition to the mandatory courses listed there is a wide array of electives. With those electives you can choose to learn a wide number of things none of which need to be "white".

If half the effort was put into implementing these electives in public schools that the TDSB exhausts in racially profiling the students it's supposed to have in its trust, then the issue of black-focused schools would never need be arisen.

There already is such elective courses for example:
- CAS331 History of Africa and Peoples of African Descent
- CHG381 Genocide: Historical and Contemporary Implications
- CHM4E1 Adventures in World History
- CGU4U1 World Geography: Human Patterns and Interactions
- CGU4C1 World Geography: Urban Patterns and Interactions
- ATF1O/2O/3M/3O/4M1 Dance – African
- ATK1O/2O/3M/3O/4M Dance – Caribbean
- AMQ1O/2O/3M/3O/4M1 Steel Drum – Music
- AMJ1O/2O/3M/3O/4M1 Vocal Jazz

In addition, in arts classes and shop classes you often can create whatever you like with the techniques you have learned. In English class there are some mandatory books but you also review books of your own choosing.

In all irony, breaking down the black community into further regionalist or nationalist divisions even further alienates and marginalizes these youth from any sort of community self-identity.

That doesn't make sense. If a generalization helps call them Canadian because that is what they really are. You are trying to impose a "black identity" which doesn't exist.

Every ethnicity has something to be proud of and come summer present that face to the whole GTA with countless weekend festivals.

None of those festivals are white or oriental. There are Italian events, Greek events, Chinese events, Caribbean events, but there is no "white event" or "oriental event". Ethnicity is Ethiopian, Greek, Italian, Scottish, Rwandan, Jamaican, Chinese, Japanese, etc. If you were to look at African history you would find it is much like European history where African kingdoms or tribes were protecting land, warring with neighbours, etc. All of human history is groups fighting with other groups and colour of skin didn't change anything. Black people fought black people, white people fought white people, they all fought each other.

Where's the black ethnic specific ones? Caribana- oh wait that's a collective representation of all Caribbean nationalities, not broken down into individualistic imagery .

There is no unified black culture. A white person who is not Greek can't look at the accomplishments of Greece and say that is their history because they are white. Even if that person was Greek it is only false logic to believe that they had any part in it. A black cultural festival would have every type of music and every type of art because black is a skin colour and not a culture.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

P.S, ever wonder why reproductive organs (including nipples & areolas) are darker than the rest of our skin?

it's because pigmentation protects you better against sunburn. women with sunburned nipples can't feed their babies and men with sore penises can't make women with sore vagina's pregnant (soreness due to sun burn).

 

[Hydrogen]

Sunburned vagina?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Sunburned vagina?

because the sun shines on that side, unlike the dark side of the moon; where the sun don't shine and people are told to stick it.

hey, i think i just discovered how anal sex was invented. this is nobel prize material. kidding aside, this is probably how the loin cloth came into use; to keep your fun parts from hurting.

 

[Steve_D]

Dude, it's 14 pages. I've got a life you know.

Dude, if you want in on the debate, you need to catch up, reiterating points made pages ago just makes you look like you were too lazy to read the whole thread. If you are actually interested, I'd suggest you do, dude.

 

[theowne]

i shouldn't even be proud to be canadian. it just happened by accident! i'm happy to be canadian. only immigrants can be proud.

Can I be proud to be a Canadian, as an immigrant? Can I claim pride in Canada's history and peoples even though I did not originate here but exist and contribute here now? Interesting question.

Maybe an elective World History course in leiu of Cdn History would be of more excitement and intrigue to them. Show how Canada relates to the rest of the world and hence the various nationalities represented to most GTA classrooms. Make those connections and maybe the TDSB cirricula will become less alienable. Isn't Canada apart of an increasingly globalizational world?

No, no, no.... Canada should not be a clubroom where different countries come after school. That's a trend I really dislike. I don't understand how a country can exist if it's people are intent on separating themselves as groups. There has to be Canadian identity and that has to be taught to push that identity onto kids. It would be horrible if we instead taught as if Canada isn't even a country. Of course we need kids to take Canadian history and said kids could bypass learning about Canada even though they are Canadian. And yes I am speaking as an immigrant here.

Whenever someone asks me "Oh, what are you?" probably expecting me to say "I'm Filipino/Bengali/Tamil/Chinese/Iraqi" I just say "I'm Canadian" and pretend I find the question obvious.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Can I be proud to be a Canadian, as an immigrant? Can I claim pride in Canada's history and peoples even though I did not originate here but exist and contribute here now? Interesting question.

if you made a conscious choice to come here and it was your decision, you can be proud if you want.

 

[EnviroTO]

The point is you shouldn't be proud of something you had no part in doing. You can be proud of your own accomplishments, can be proud to know someone, and be proud of the accomplishments of someone else, but you shouldn't find self worth in what someone else did.

If a person says "I'm a couch potato but my race invented something so whoohoo I'm awesome" that is seriously flawed logic. If you personally did nothing you aren't awesome, you are still a couch potato. People need to stop defining themselves by other peoples accomplishments, other peoples musical creations, other peoples good behaviour or bad behaviour.

 

[Hydrogen]

It is possible that when Pangaea split up into various continents it took various hominind hybrids off to populate them.

Pangea existed some 250 million years ago - before dinosaurs, before polar bears and before humans.

 

[theowne]

If a person says "I'm a couch potato but my race invented something so whoohoo I'm awesome" that is seriously flawed logic. If you personally did nothing you aren't awesome, you are still a couch potato. People need to stop defining themselves by other peoples accomplishments, other peoples musical creations, other peoples good behaviour or bad behaviour.

If only everyone thought like you....it makes such perfect sense to me and yet there's so many people who can't comprehend this, and there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[Undying42]

RE: Undying42

it involves natural selection & the fact that in colder climates with less sunlight, having dark skin reduces absorption of UV rays so having lighter skin makes you better adapted to producing vitamin D and gives you a survival advantage. in hotter climates, having dark skin prevents UV damage damage to folic acid. genetic mutations & lots of generation = viola!

P.S, pangea broke up way too long ago. i don't think hominids existed then. humans have only be around for 250K years at most; and that's a pretty generous number.

Well since you explain it so nicely, I'll concede. I just find it incredible that enough humans escaped through the Sinai Peninsula to populate all the other continents on that scale of multimillions. Modern humans only appeared a few epochs ago such that it makes me wonder what forces drove so many peoples to migrate out of Africa, and more or less 'evolve' into modern-day Causasoid/Mongoloid variants. Bunching people together arbitrarily can be just as dangerous as segregation because it fails to answer the physiological differences which are visibly obvious to everyone- like facial features distinct to one race being absent in others.

The discovery of other fossilized humans in Borneo and in a French cavern put in question the assertion that 'Lucy' and her Tanzanian kinsfolk were in fact the progenitors of all human life. Mountain Lions (puma concolor) with differing appearences exist in distinct populations in different pockets of the Americas yet are all considered the same species. It's probable that the primates which evolved into homo sapiens were hybridized as per natural selection, accounting for the variations we see in the species today. Humans are animals too remember, what makes us think that we're any different from other creatures subdivided into distinct subspecies, I don't know.

i don't think so. finding solidarity with others just because you came from the same country or same town will set you up into a position to be exploited.

To this day that's the most widely held form of socialization. People who stray far from familiarity are bound to feel the sting of isolation.

Can I be proud to be a Canadian, as an immigrant? Can I claim pride in Canada's history and peoples even though I did not originate here but exist and contribute here now? Interesting question.

No, no, no.... Canada should not be a clubroom where different countries come after school. That's a trend I really dislike. I don't understand how a country can exist if it's people are intent on separating themselves as groups. There has to be Canadian identity and that has to be taught to push that identity onto kids. It would be horrible if we instead taught as if Canada isn't even a country. Of course we need kids to take Canadian history and said kids could bypass learning about Canada even though they are Canadian. And yes I am speaking as an immigrant here.

Whenever someone asks me "Oh, what are you?" probably expecting me to say "I'm Filipino/Bengali/Tamil/Chinese/Iraqi" I just say "I'm Canadian" and pretend I find the question obvious.

Canada's a contradiction in of itself, an antithetical managerie of cultures and identities strung together by maple syrup and hockey sticks and Pamela Anderson's double D bosoms. Throw in some plasticine smiles and polite, self-depreciating modus operandi and there you have it- being Canadian in a nutshell.

My point is that if we have nothing of substance to back up our distinct society other than our not being British or American (or for hardcore Quebecois sovereignists not Canadian), why force it down students' throats who'd rather be engaged by something more concrete and relevant to their existences. Unless you're going to become a lawyer or history teacher there's liitle need for the subject beyond trivial pursuit. Heck half the stuff we're taught never comes up again in our careers or everyday life so why fail students out of school on the basis of not comprehending meaningless informaion in an uninspired cirricula?

I'm glad you at least have found a self-identity that works best for you. That's the most important thing here, how the individual is accomodated by the society in which they reside.

 

[Undying42]

But being black shouldn't be seen as an insult. Being called a "racist" should be seen as a worse insult than "nigger"

Blasphemy! A person who belittles another person of a different ethno-cultural background on the basis of that distinction is being a racist because it asserts superiority over their inferior victim, enslaver castrating the slave. I've said it before, semantics are lethal. Sympathising with the racist's plight of being outed/scorned for their sycophancy and deviant mindset is amoral and gives them a free pass to inflict unwarranted hurt on others.

The social issues that remain are largely due to self-esteem. These same social issues affect all races. A person born in a trailer park has a great likelihood of staying there. A woman abused by her alcoholic mother is more likely to become an abusive alcoholic mother. The solution to getting people out of the trailer park and out of a vicious cycle is to (a) have one-on-one counselling, and (b) programs that get them into the community like the Big Brother program and camps for kids. Programs that say "you are a normal person", say "you are equal to everyone else", and say "you are Canadian". People need to feel like they belong and have self worth. It isn't going to be easy to tell people they are the equal to everyone else if they are isolated from everybody else.

If 90% of the population avoids going to places like Jane and Driftwood, then the inhabitants of that area, predominatly of one specific demographic, will already be socially isolated. What does self-esteem have to do with a cycle of abuse egged on by no jobs or oppurtunities for youth, strict hiring policies, lack of role models- particularly father figures in the home, prevalent gang presence, prevaling inferiority complexes through the media and/or living paycheque to paycheque without decent food, clothes or shelter? Mentality and drive only goes so far against insurmountable odds. Big Brother camp and consuel is a band-aid, not an elixir.

Words are never more dangerous than bullets. With words you have a choice to see the person as an ignorant person whose words mean nothing. Only the words of someone you see as knowledgeable or who you respect should mean anything to you.

It's all subjective and dependent on individual sensitivity. Some people can overcome hardships more readily than others. It doesn't make them weak or inferior to comtemplate why they were subject to victimization and how it could've been avoided. Sometimes you just come to the realization that those who persecute you over trivial, meaningless things are moronic no-lifes not worth getting upset over.

With friends or co-workers it will hurt much more because you trusted them and they betrayed you. That betrayal feels is bad regardless of race.

Glad you agree.

I think you are mistakenly thinking that somehow these subjects appeal to non-minorities more. The number of kids that jump up and down for joy at the idea of curriculum are few and far between. In addition this country has always been a country of immigrants so even a kid from Bathurst NB probably has parents or grandparents that arrived on a boat from somewhere.

You're missing my point. Majority population dictates majority prioritization. Minorities hence are secondary afterthoughts. Cirricula not upto their speed?... tough, the majority designed it, adapt to it or drop out. You're just a number and can be easily replaced. This engenders valuelessness of whatever discrepancies minority youth feel, feelings that can go unchecked until the worst happens like the Virginia Tech massacre.

In addition to the mandatory courses listed there is a wide array of electives. With those electives you can choose to learn a wide number of things none of which need to be "white".

What I don't get is how diversity can exist in this manner and yet the TDSB's proposal to solving the issue of underachieving black youth is to give them their own instituition, where I suppose they'll more or less be taught the same things?

That doesn't make sense. If a generalization helps call them Canadian because that is what they really are. You are trying to impose a "black identity" which doesn't exist.

Are you serious? If some white guys approach you and introduce themselves, all sounding and looking the same, is it not before they say out their full names that one can sort of figure their ancestry? You can't complain about segregation in one breath then seek with another to marginalize a physiologically similar collective into one, one pockets of people on the basis of country-of-origin.

None of those festivals are white or oriental. There are Italian events, Greek events, Chinese events, Caribbean events, but there is no "white event" or "oriental event". Ethnicity is Ethiopian, Greek, Italian, Scottish, Rwandan, Jamaican, Chinese, Japanese, etc. If you were to look at African history you would find it is much like European history where African kingdoms or tribes were protecting land, warring with neighbours, etc. All of human history is groups fighting with other groups and colour of skin didn't change anything. Black people fought black people, white people fought white people, they all fought each other.

Back to semantics class. Are we an assimilist melting pot or a pluralist culturosphere? Either way Canada's multicultural policy leaves alot open to debate.

There is no unified black culture. A white person who is not Greek can't look at the accomplishments of Greece and say that is their history because they are white. Even if that person was Greek it is only false logic to believe that they had any part in it. A black cultural festival would have every type of music and every type of art because black is a skin colour and not a culture.

Then why are there so many corporations under the umbrella term black people associations e.g. NAACP, BET, NCF, Essence, Black Business Professionals Assoc.? There must be something self-identifiable and discerning about being 'black' as opposed to being 'African-American', 'Afro-Canadian' that'd allot so much time and resources being invested to preserve a black image to counter the stereotype-enriched vernacular of blacks as criminals and wards of the state.

 

[EnviroTO]

My point is that if we have nothing of substance to back up our distinct society other than our not being British or American (or for hardcore Quebecois sovereignists not Canadian), why force it down students' throats who'd rather be engaged by something more concrete and relevant to their existences. Unless you're going to become a lawyer or history teacher there's liitle need for the subject beyond trivial pursuit. Heck half the stuff we're taught never comes up again in our careers or everyday life so why fail students out of school on the basis of not comprehending meaningless informaion in an uninspired cirricula?

Canadian History is not about defining who we are as people. Canadian History is the answer to why Canada exists in the way it does today. It answers why the borders are where they are, why there is no president, why there is a Queen on Canadian money, why there is a lieutenant governor, how there came to be two official languages, how our history differs from other countries, why there are provinces rather than states, why Toronto and Ottawa are capitals, why Canadian flags are flying at sites in France and Belgium, what the Charter of Rights is all about, etc. It answers why Canada is Canada, not what Canadians are.

A Canadian has no definition other than a geography and a citizenship. Each person has a different view of what a Canadian is. I think that is a great thing because it frees us to be whatever we want to be. A Canadian restaurant is any restaurant because there isn't really a Canadian flavour and the only thing that would make a food more Canadian is that more of the food would be grown locally or have been invented in Canada. Some people will see brands and products as defining Canada such as Tim Hortons, Shreddies, or Smarties. Some people will see common childhood experiences such as watching Canadian made TV shows as being Canadian. Some will see sports like Hockey, Lacrosse, Curling, or Basketball as being Canadian.

I find that what a Canadian is really doesn't matter because despite my being Canadian I rarely visit Tim Hortons and never played hockey. If I was to say what I find most Canadian I would say it is hearing so many languages and seeing so many different people in day to day life, having so many choices of great foods (both at the food stores and in restaurants) at good prices, and the winter experience of shovelling a driveway, scraping ice off a car wind shield, or bundling up and walking through -10'C temperatures. If you go to most other countries in the world they are incredibly uni-cultural and any food with is not of the local flavours is either not good or priced like a delicacy. I had Vietnamese food in Tokyo, one of the cheapest foods available in Toronto, and I was completely blown away by how expensive it was. They priced eating non-Japanese fare like it was a delicacy for the social elite. We are so fortunate in Toronto to have authentic Indian food, Jamaican food, Chinese food, Italian food, Greek food, Japanese food, etc here. If I had to eat one type of food I would be bored out of my skull.