urbanfan89
Active Member
That almost came to being, but was killed when Martin took over from Chretien. Essentially, such an important project fell victim to Liberal Party infighting. What a shame.
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- Thread starter isittimetomoveyet
- Start date
That almost came to being, but was killed when Martin took over from Chretien. Essentially, such an important project fell victim to Liberal Party infighting. What a shame.
Dan416
Senior Member
Ugh don't remind me. *cry*
MisterF
Senior Member
Actually VIA trains already go that fast. They go up to 160 km/h.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Fully agree with this. It's exactly what I say too. The only way HSR is going to get off the ground is if there can be stops in places like Belleville. That's the only way to get buy in from everybody. Otherwise, the argument that 20 million people will benefit from a TOM HSR is bunk and the good folks of places like Belleville or Coburg will know it.
I think stops will have to run something like this (using Toronto-Ottawa) as an example:
Union-Guildwood-Oshawa-Coburg-Belleville-Kingston-Brockville-Smith's Falls-Fallowfield-Ottawa
The communities losing stops (Port Hope, Trenton, Napanee, Gananoque) aren't more than a half hour drive from the nearest station. And the increased speed will more than make it up.
On the speed front, even with that many stops, the trip time Union-Ottawa needs to be about 3.5 hours. I don't think it needs to be less than that if the ticket cost is right. But I don't think it can be more than that either. I also think some consideration should be given to splitting the route: separate services for Toronto-Ottawa, Toronto-Montreal, Ottawa-Montreal. This would make both Ottawa and Montreal reachable within 3.5 hours and Ottawa-Montreal possible within 1-1.25 hours.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I agree 100% that we need stops in those towns, but no one says that all the trains have to stop there. VIA already runs express trains non-stop from Toronto to Montreal (VIA 66/67). Having different stopping patterns then opens up the possibility of keeping service in Napanee, Trenton, Port Hope and Ganoque because the number of stops on the local train has no effect on the number of stops on the express trains.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Well, HSR could run multiple services. You could have one service that stops at all the current small cities/large towns, while another stops at Union, Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston, etc. and one just does Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal or Toronto-Montreal. The demand's more than there.
Justin10000
Banned
Most HSR lines have stations with sidings for local services.
cfloryan
Here
Um exactly how many passengers a day do you think belleville or smith falls would get? 5? 10? I really don't see how the economics of that are justified, even if you were to run express and local services. The bus is better for serving small cities like this.
This brings me to another pet peeve. Why on earth does VIA run trains to Sarnia, Sudbury and the like?! Has anyone ever been on these trains? I don't see how you could even fill up a single car let alone a whole train on low traffic routes like this. It's a waste of my VIA subsidy dollars!
This brings me to another pet peeve. Why on earth does VIA run trains to Sarnia, Sudbury and the like?! Has anyone ever been on these trains? I don't see how you could even fill up a single car let alone a whole train on low traffic routes like this. It's a waste of my VIA subsidy dollars!
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
Smiths Falls gets a lot of Ottawa commuter traffic, so depending on the time of day and train there could be 30 - 40 people using that stop. Usually I would say its about 20 people. I am not sure about Belleville...I haven't been on a Toronto train that has made that stop in a long time. But I can think of other stations, such as Brockville, which probably sees 20 - 40 people a stop. Actually this is one station I have noticed become much busier in the past few years, whatever that reason might be.
If you increase the speed and efficiency of train service (which a bus couldn't touch), then these numbers will grow even more. If just 300 people use a station each day, then over the course of a year that is a little over 100,000 trips. You add all the small stations with numbers like that across the whole corridor network, and then also consider the growth in passenger traffic that could take place at them, and suddenly you can start to see the value they provide.
Edit: Having grown up and still spending time in small town and rural Ontario and Quebec I can say that there is just as much potential for growth in these areas as there is in major cities. The big reason I see people so quick to dismiss the idea is that its never been seriously studied. There are a lot of reasons why a city like Brockville or Belleville would probably see stronger numbers then most people suspect. This becomes especially true if the HSR network had direct links with Pearson as well as a diversified service that would allow most places to be reached on a single train, or at least with a very short connection.
If you increase the speed and efficiency of train service (which a bus couldn't touch), then these numbers will grow even more. If just 300 people use a station each day, then over the course of a year that is a little over 100,000 trips. You add all the small stations with numbers like that across the whole corridor network, and then also consider the growth in passenger traffic that could take place at them, and suddenly you can start to see the value they provide.
Edit: Having grown up and still spending time in small town and rural Ontario and Quebec I can say that there is just as much potential for growth in these areas as there is in major cities. The big reason I see people so quick to dismiss the idea is that its never been seriously studied. There are a lot of reasons why a city like Brockville or Belleville would probably see stronger numbers then most people suspect. This becomes especially true if the HSR network had direct links with Pearson as well as a diversified service that would allow most places to be reached on a single train, or at least with a very short connection.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
It's funny, because previous just quick glance studies have said 100% yes, we should be building HSR. An in-depth study would be so overwhelming that it may actually get built!
Passenger rail in Southern Ontario could go phenomenally well. We have more than enough density to support it, nearing that of France and the Balkans, and surpassing Scotland, Spain, and southern Scandinavia, where rail travel's gone phenomenally well. The Quebec-Windsor corridor could easily be built similarly to places in Europe or Asia, with trains crisscrossing all over the place, but it's never going to happen if we say it won't work. Already, the corridor's ready for HSR, and the millions of new people that'll be coming in the coming decades won't hurt those odds, especially if we build our cities, towns, and countryside in a smart way. Forget the naysayers and prove them wrong.
I'm kind of curious, is the current study (they're currently doing a study, right?) looking to be the holy grail in-depth explorative study, or just a political bone to throw?
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I remember hearing November from somewhere... Maybe Paul Langan.
cfloryan
Here
Of course, agreed, HSR would be very viable in Southern Ontario. It just becomes pointless if the train stops at every small city along the way, thereby reducing its speed.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
As mentioned before you can still serve smaller cities, either by sidings with stations that are directly on the high speed line or with flying/burrowing junctions that lead to small spur lines where it is desirable to send the line closer or into the city. Trains can skip these stations without slowing down at all. You can run express services that will still be blazingly fast as well as offer service to smaller centres which even then will still offer fairly fast and reasonable travel times. The details in the design of the network can make a world of difference in how useful and comprehensive it would be.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
To add on to what AnarchoSocialist said, here is an illustration of how trains are NOT slowed down by local stops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkoz8aEUssQ
On the Tokaido Shinkansen, they have the Nozomi (super-express), Hikari (express), and Kodama (local) services. The Nozomi is blazingly fast, and the Kodama serves a large number of communities.
cacruden
Senior Member
I have a friend from a small town - not served by the high-speed train in Japan .... population 150,000 people. When you talk about small towns in Japan..... it is of a completely different scale - there is no city between Toronto and Montreal with a population of 150,000 people or more. The cost to construct the network in Japan is more than 1/2 the total accumulated debt of Canada to the current date.