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unimaginative2

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Rainwater proposed to flush Ex toilets

JEFF GRAY

The Globe and Mail
November 29, 2007

Plans to spend nearly $1-million on a "demonstration rainwater harvesting system" at Exhibition Place are a waste of money, critics say, but city officials argue the move will yield long-term environmental benefits.

With little debate, the city's works committee recommended yesterday that council approve the plans, which would see rainwater collected at the Automotive Building and then used to flush toilets in its eight washrooms, as part of a pilot project to showcase new technology to make buildings more efficient.

Toronto Water would put up $600,000 in its capital budget for the project, while city-owned Exhibition Place would pick up the rest of the bill, expected to be a total of up to $935,000, as part of the Automotive Building's renovations.

The works committee chairman, Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, an ally of Mayor David Miller, said the project would inspire others in the city to install similar systems, reducing the amount of cleaned and filtered drinking water wasted on flushing toilets.

"It's a great technology that we want to demonstrate to the world," Mr. De Baeremaeker (Scarborough Centre) said yesterday, arguing that widespread adoption of the technology would conserve water, save energy and spare the city millions of dollars by delaying the need for new water-filtration plants.

Critics disagreed that the cash-strapped water department, which has been raising rates at least 9 per cent a year to pay for the replacement of rusting and breaking pipes, should be spending any extra money on such a project.

"It's another example of the city wasting money on a non-priority," said Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, a right-leaning critic of the mayor.

He said in an interview that the private sector is already adopting new green technologies that save companies money and meet customer demands, without government interference.

"Governments don't have to waste money on these kinds of projects to show that they work," said Mr. Minnan-Wong (Don Valley East).

Even Councillor Adam Vaughan, a left-leaning independent, was critical.

"It's a lot of money for eight washrooms," he said.

While acknowledging that many environmental initiatives at Exhibition Place are good ideas, Mr. Vaughan (Trinity Spadina) said the Ex recently refused to give local Muslims a break when renting a room for Eid celebrations, even as it decides to spend lots of money on other projects.

"Instead of standing up for large engineering firms, the CNE needs to serve the needs of individual Torontonians," said Mr. Vaughan.

A similar rainwater collection system was proposed for Exhibition Place's Better Living Centre.
 
WTF. Again another dumbass scheme from city hall. Sorry but this technology has been used all over the world already. Get with the times.
 
If the technology has been used all over the world already, why is it a dumbass scheme? Sounds like a proven way of promoting environmental stewardship to me. If it were an unproven risk, then I can see it being a dumbass scheme, but since it has worked "all over the world", then it seems like a natural progression for the CNE to make.

A million dollars does seem quite high though.
 
When will this City Council realize that it's not their job to try to save the world or be champions of environmental causes or feel good projects with limited or no short to mid term benefit for the city?! City Council should be completely focused on fixing its finances and providing the best municipal services (transit, police, fire, water, roads, downloaded social housing, etc....) possible on the sharpest coin. This city is almost bankrupt and they keep finding crazy things to spend money on. Anything that is not essential, such as this project, should be axed, until the money is available.
 
When I use the term dumbass scheme, i mean it in the way that this technology exists everywhere in the world already. Developers know about it but don't wan to invest extra money for the environment. They would rather just hook up the plumbing to the existing system and leave with more money. The city can find better ways of spending their money. Maybe instead of blowing a million dollars on this excercise they should give some tax breaks for developers to use environmentally sensitive technologies.
 
The city can find better ways of spending their money. Maybe instead of blowing a million dollars on this excercise they should give some tax breaks for developers to use environmentally sensitive technologies.
How about instead the city keep the money its got, forget about feel good schemes that offer longterm potential savings and instead apply every penny to short and mid term maintenance of city programs, infrastructure and services? The city is near bankrupt, but no one at City Hall is acting like it.
 
Green Leadership

This is one part of larger plan to help Exhibition Place meet its goal of being energy self-sufficient by 2010. Too often governments make wide ranging statements on paper with lofty feel good objectives that are never acted upon and that gather dust sitting on a shelf.

It cost money upfront to be green, yet we will all benefit and save economically and environmentally in the long run.

Let's get some of the facts clear first.

The new water system is being planned as part of the reconstruction work to the Automotive Building which is part of the new hotel-convention centre expansion of the Direct Energy centre. Adding in this feature later when the building in completed and in operation will probably cost more.

Those 8 washroom facilities contain roughly 120 toilets, along with an equal number of sinks for a total of 240 units. This is a one time investment to retrofit these units that will save cost and water in the long run. These upgraded facilities will service thousands of daily convention centre goers year round. I know for a fact that during the 18 Day CNE alone an average of 20,000 - 25,000 people pass through the building on a given day.

Environmental Leadership

The city has been a world leader in fronting the investment for costly environmental initiatives that not only inspires others, more importantly builds a great city.

Four prime examples:

Toronto Atmospheric Fund was established in 1991 by City Council to finance Toronto-based initiatives that combat global climate change and improve air quality. On an annual basis, TAF has approximately $1.2 million available for grants and special projects. Up to $8 million in financing is currently available for mandate-related loans.

There is the recently launched solar panel pilot project atop the horse building, currently it produces 100 kilowatt of energy. The long term plan is to grow it into the largest solar panel projects in North America, producing a 1.5-2 megawatt system.

The Wind Turbine also located on the CNE grounds. When first proposed in 1997 mainstream opinion was that a profitable wind turbine didn't have a prayer and a waste of taxpayers money. Today, it is wildly embraced as an iconic monument on Toronto’s waterfront and is a model to other world cities, most notably London, UK which is building one in its new Olympic Park. More importantly, it is now a profitable venture and produces annual dividends to investors.

The Enwave Deep Lake Water Cooling system. Initially costing millions to start up, it is now one of the largest district energy systems in North America, and provides heating and/or cooling services to over 140 buildings in downtown Toronto.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayomatic
The city can find better ways of spending their money. Maybe instead of blowing a million dollars on this excercise they should give some tax breaks for developers to use environmentally sensitive technologies.

Admiral Beez
How about instead the city keep the money its got, forget about feel good schemes that offer longterm potential savings and instead apply every penny to short and mid term maintenance of city programs, infrastructure and services? The city is near bankrupt, but no one at City Hall is acting like it.

In 2005 and 2006 the Toronto Atmospheric Fund,[/B] provided loan agreements totaling $1.4 million to help Tridel finance incremental costs of new condominiums that outperform the national energy code by 30 percent.

Tridel recently completed two residential buildings that outperform the national energy code by 30%. The company was able to create energy efficiency by using lake water (for cooling) and heat recovery (for ventilation), and also by working with organizations like the Toronto Atmospheric Fund, which helps Tridel implement these practices without increasing the cost of living in a green building.

http://www.toronto.ca/taf/

Louroz
 
It cost money upfront to be green, yet we will all benefit and save economically and environmentally in the long run.

This is a one time investment to retrofit these units that will save cost and water in the long run.
You keep mentioning benefits "in the long run". When you're essentially bankrupt, you do not spend a dime on anything that is a potential long run savings, but instead you spend every penny and every available resource and expertise on fixing the immediate short to mid term crisis.
 
In 2005 and 2006 the Toronto Atmospheric Fund,[/B] provided loan agreements totaling $1.4 million to help Tridel finance incremental costs of new condominiums that outperform the national energy code by 30 percent.
You just don't get it. The city is near bankrupt, but you won't stop talking about the environment. It is not the city's job to embrace feel good environmental schemes with long term potential. Who cares if Tridel has saved on energy consumption through loans from the City. Unless Tridel's interest rates on the loan are huge and/or immediate (not long term) property taxes generated are significant this does nothing to eliminate the city's deficit, and instead has locked away city cash in loans to private developers.

That $1.4 million could have been used towards infrastructure improvements, or even better, kept in the bank to help towards balancing the city's books.
 
Environmental Leadership

The city has been a world leader in fronting the investment for costly environmental initiatives that not only inspires others, more importantly builds a great city.

Four prime examples:

Toronto Atmospheric Fund was established in 1991 by City Council to finance Toronto-based initiatives that combat global climate change and improve air quality. On an annual basis, TAF has approximately $1.2 million available for grants and special projects. Up to $8 million in financing is currently available for mandate-related loans.
And what is the short to mid-term payback financially for the city? How does spending this money on this project show the premier and the city's population that the Mayor is cutting back and working to avoid bankruptcy?
There is the recently launched solar panel pilot project atop the horse building, currently it produces 100 kilowatt of energy. The long term plan is to grow it into the largest solar panel projects in North America, producing a 1.5-2 megawatt system.
How much did that cost? What is the short to mid-term payback? Does the city even bother doing Return on Investment analysis when signing onto these projects?
The Wind Turbine also located on the CNE grounds. When first proposed in 1997 mainstream opinion was that a profitable wind turbine didn't have a prayer and a waste of taxpayers money. Today, it is wildly embraced as an iconic monument on Toronto’s waterfront and is a model to other world cities, most notably London, UK which is building one in its new Olympic Park. More importantly, it is now a profitable venture and produces annual dividends to investors.
Okay, people embrace it, but you haven't addressed your own statement above "a profitable wind turbine didn't have a prayer". Is it profitable now? If not, how much city money went into it, and how can we get that money back?
The Enwave Deep Lake Water Cooling system. Initially costing millions to start up, it is now one of the largest district energy systems in North America, and provides heating and/or cooling services to over 140 buildings in downtown Toronto.
So the city spent millions to heat 140 buildings, essentially reducing the heating bills of the building owners. Did the building owners pay those millions back in increased property taxes to the city? If we hadn't done this project, I assume the building owners would have been paying more for power, which is great for the city owned power utility.

I do not see how any of the projects you've listed above turned a profit or benefited the finances for the city. But this is the problem with this city council, they never think like business people. When you've got surplus money you can spend on feel good and discretionary items, such as environmental projects, public festivals, arts, sporting and culture events, etc. However, when you're near bankruptcy, and your only hope is a bailout from above, you must use every penny you have with utmost care, and must use all your energy and resources towards cutting immediate short to mid term costs and spending. All of the projects you've listed above should have been scrapped the moment it was realized that there was no short to mid term payback for the city. I'm concerned that in many of the cases you've presented here that there's been no payback at all for the city. How much did the city invest in that wind turbine vs. the return to the city?
 
The good Admiral likes to ignore that it has been cities, by and large, that are at the forefront of fighting climate change. Look at San Francisco, which had converted every city vehicle (buses, ambulances, the pooperscoopermobiles) to biofuels. Of course, someone who rides around in and on internal comubstion engines as a form of entertainment might not think that saving the planet is a worthwhile investment.
 
The good Admiral likes to ignore that it has been cities, by and large, that are at the forefront of fighting climate change. Look at San Francisco, which had converted every city vehicle (buses, ambulances, the pooperscoopermobiles) to biofuels.
As I said, I'm all for Toronto pursuing environmentally progressive initiatives, IF we have the money. Andrea, tell us this, did San Francisco pay 100% of the cost to convert every city vehicle, or was there a large chunk of State and Federal assistance funding included? Toronto's not going to get any financial assistance from the Feds nor Queen's Park until City Hall starts acting like it's in the financial crisis it's in.

By the way, San Francisco did not convert wholly to biofuels as you imply. San Francisco's diesel vehicles now use a fuel known as B20, a mix of 20 percent soy-based biofuel and 80 percent petroleum diesel fuel. This certainly reduces toxic emissions of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and other pollutants, but the Bay City is still burning a lot of oil. I'd love to see Toronto's aging bus fleet converted to run on bio-fuels, but who's going to pay for it?

The question we need to ask in these trying financial times for Toronto is how does converting Toronto's buses to bio-fuels save the city any money? If it doesn't save or make the city any money, how can we finance the conversion?

Of course, someone who rides around in and on internal comubstion engines as a form of entertainment might not think that saving the planet is a worthwhile investment.
Perhaps you can tell me where you get your battery powered ride-on.
 

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