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The availability of land isn't limited. That's a fallacy. The availability of land along major streets where the City won't go ballistic if one proposes more than 2 or 3 storeys (even there, there are no guarantees) is limited. The availability of land where the City talks about midrise development, and actually means it, is limited. The availability of land along major streets in the most desirable locations near good transit and amenities, because Council has repeatedly failed to build higher level transit elsewhere, is limited. And the availability of land where there already is higher level transit, but Council hasn't sought to impose crazy Official Plan policies unreasonably restricting growth along the corridor, is limited. So we get tower proposals downtown. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it's naive to think we can avoid the 40+ FSI proposals without blockbusting.

So, you are faulting others for not enacting the right policies (oddly enough, because other councillors are just as interested in preserving the status quo) just so that development can be dumped in the core? Okay. In other words, they aren't acting all that differently - I mean, are those OP policies any more crazy than the ones restricting growth in neighbourhoods?

And if we would not be doing this for affordability, why would we be doing it? To get more high end housing? We not facing a shortage in that regard.

If you think that not having an added supply of something will not translate into prices going from merely high to stratospheric, we've got news for you. Besides, what is it that you are suggesting - that we should preserve DROs so that they can remain high-end housing - and eventually become stratospheric-end housing in the city? That is exactly what is happening - what kind of policy outcome is THAT? Who are we making these DRO neighbourhoods immutable for? The upper-middle (increasingly upper) class with Rosedale-esque aspirations?

AoD
 
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I don't know why the discussion has drifted to either/or. We can pursue our Midrise Avenue plans and continue proposing high-rises downtown, AND increase the density of our low-rise neighbourhoods with denser forms of low-rise housing. We have a looooot of people expected to move in to the city in the next 20-30 years, we will need all the tools we can use.

I struggle with the idea of bulldozing our low-rise neighbourhoods for townhouses and walk-ups. We aren't giving the entire neighbourhood to a single developer. We would be allowing the free market to work. If restrictions were lifted, the free market will incrementally take single detached houses and rebuilt them into townhouses or duplexes. Why? Because there is a demand for housing in Toronto and it would be profitable to do so.

Should we allow this to happen? The answer is yes, because increasing the housing stock lowers prices and there are a lot of areas of the city where we can lift building restrictions. Yes because converting single-detached to multi-unit housing stock moves the neighbourhood past the threshold where public transit is viable. Yes because the slightly denser neighbourhood results in a bigger market for local businesses and restaurants and will be a boon to the economy. Yes because it is better to bring more people into these Toronto walkable neighbourhoods which is a better planning and environmental outcome than placing them far away in the 905's suburban sprawl. Yes because it will preserve the built-form and character of these neighbourhoods (and bulldoze + highrise approach will not).
 
So, you are faulting others for not enacting the right policies (oddly enough, because other councillors are just as interested in preserving the status quo) just so that development can be dumped in the core? Okay.

That's not what I said at all. I simply think we need not damage some of the strongest components of the core because the City can't get its act together to enact reasonable development policies. You seem to think that because Council has been foolish, we should then be even more foolish.

In other words, they aren't acting all that differently - I mean, are those OP policies any more crazy than the ones restricting growth in neighbourhoods?

Yes, profoundly so. I can only assume you're joking.

If you think that not having an added supply of something will not translate into prices going from merely high to stratospheric, we've got news for you. Besides, what is it that you are suggesting - that we should preserve DROs so that they can remain high-end housing - and eventually become stratospheric-end housing in the city? That is exactly what is happening - what kind of policy outcome is THAT? Who are we making these DRO neighbourhoods immutable for? The upper-middle (increasingly upper) class with Rosedale-esque aspirations?

Except that this incremental approach that you've suddenly switched to is not going to eliminate 40+ FSI proposals, is only going to result in high-end expensive infill projects, and isn't going to meanigfully increase supply. You won't improve affordability, or meaningfully affect prices in lower-rise neighbourhoods. To achieve a different result on any one of those points, you would need to much more radically transform those neighbourhoods. You need to stop pretending you're not talking about bulldozing and blockbusting. You would threaten the fabric of neighbourhoods that constribute significantly to the strength of our core, without accomplishing any of your objectives, when they are much more logical and more justifiable places to be directing development in a way that can actually achieve the results you want.

And again, nobody said these neighbourhoods should be immutable. Enough with the neighbours who try to stop 6-storey midrise down the street on a streetcar route, or who help block townhouses across from a subway station. As I've said before, these people need to get used to more density on the major streets near them, and seeing taller buildings from their yards. As I noted, many of these neighbourhoods are zoned R already, and permit higher density forms of housing already as-of-right. As I have said repeatedly on more than one occasion, there are so very many appropriate sites for densification along arterials and transit corridors. Let's get serious about building along our Avenues, and streets that should be arterials, before we start bulldozing neighbourhoods (which, with all dues respect, is exactly what you are advocating).

The upper-middle (increasingly upper) class with Rosedale-esque aspirations?

Your argument is veering away from planning and into grievance here.
 
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I don't know why the discussion has drifted to either/or. We can pursue our Midrise Avenue plans and continue proposing high-rises downtown, AND increase the density of our low-rise neighbourhoods with denser forms of low-rise housing. We have a looooot of people expected to move in to the city in the next 20-30 years, we will need all the tools we can use.

I struggle with the idea of bulldozing our low-rise neighbourhoods for townhouses and walk-ups. We aren't giving the entire neighbourhood to a single developer. We would be allowing the free market to work. If restrictions were lifted, the free market will incrementally take single detached houses and rebuilt them into townhouses or duplexes. Why? Because there is a demand for housing in Toronto and it would be profitable to do so.

Should we allow this to happen? The answer is yes, because increasing the housing stock lowers prices and there are a lot of areas of the city where we can lift building restrictions. Yes because converting single-detached to multi-unit housing stock moves the neighbourhood past the threshold where public transit is viable. Yes because the slightly denser neighbourhood results in a bigger market for local businesses and restaurants and will be a boon to the economy. Yes because it is better to bring more people into these Toronto walkable neighbourhoods which is a better planning and environmental outcome than placing them far away in the 905's suburban sprawl. Yes because it will preserve the built-form and character of these neighbourhoods (and bulldoze + highrise approach will not).

Except what you are proposing is already permitted as-of-right in the R zone in many such neighbourhoods. How is that working out?

You will not achieve meaningful impacts until you allow blockbusting. Otherwise, all you'll end up with is high-priced infill inhabited by people who like to be near the subway/streetcar but mostly drive.

And I totally reject this dichotomy - we need to either transform all of our lower-rise neighbourhoods in the core or we need to put people "far away in the 905's suburban sprawl." That's just false.
 
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C'mon guys. This thread is supposed to contain choice selections of babble from the padded clamshell, not brain-hurting essays on as-of-right in the R zone. It's City Council, so let's get back to chronicling insanity in the twilight zone. Because a direct Mammo quote is part of the process, somewhere between denial and despair.
 
I miss councillor Parker.

"In Toronto we use LRT and heavy rail to do what a subway does, and a subway to do what LRT does better, and pay extra to do all that. And we use the regional rail line to serve local needs and we use the local transit system to serve the region. And somewhere in the middle of all that we find a pretext to call some component of it "Smart". Because, well, there was this promise."
 
I miss councillor Parker.

"In Toronto we use LRT and heavy rail to do what a subway does, and a subway to do what LRT does better, and pay extra to do all that. And we use the regional rail line to serve local needs and we use the local transit system to serve the region. And somewhere in the middle of all that we find a pretext to call some component of it "Smart". Because, well, there was this promise."
I really hope he tries to retake his council position.
 
Mammo has yet to figure out this budget thing...

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Ben Spurr@BenSpurr
1 min ago
Cllr Mammoliti asks what city can build without raising taxes or introducing new taxes.

But free lunches are really great! Where are all the free lunches?!
 
Michael Ford asked if they considered looking at having a BRT run along Eglinton West in Etobicoke. Apparently, he wasn't listening in kindergarten when Etobicoke ratepayers had an uprising of sorts when they wanted to add a bus-only or HOV lane to Eglinton Avenue West, which would have made it 3 lanes in each direction.
 
Michael Ford asked if they considered looking at having a BRT run along Eglinton West in Etobicoke. Apparently, he wasn't listening in kindergarten when Etobicoke ratepayers had an uprising of sorts when they wanted to add a bus-only or HOV lane to Eglinton Avenue West, which would have made it 3 lanes in each direction.

It's actually kind of refreshing to at least hear that question asked.
 
Just like there are people who still want expressways all over Toronto (IE. Richview Expressway)?

I meant more in terms of thinking outside the box and asking whether there are reasonable alternatives to consider pursuing rather than blanket approving any and all approvals without consideration of ridership, development potential, or funding.
 

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